Software > 3DS Max > Plugin News
ThinkingParticles 6.2 brings smoke operators and atmospheric rendering effects
Aug 14, 2015 by CGP Staff
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Cebas has has released Subscription Drop 2, a new update to its rule-based particle system for procedural creation of visual effects. New features include smoke operators that allow to explore new ways of handling compressible fluid effects like smoke and gas, as well as rule-based interaction between the fluid bodies (smoke/fumes) and rigid bodies.
TP 6.2 also comes with a feature that allows to render instantly gaseous effects such as smoke, clouds and fire. TP’s functionality now includes a true volumetric particle point renderer.
Other workflow enhancements include a PPassString operator that allows to access particle groups across ‘hierarchy trees’ just by their name or parts of their name, a LayerToParticle operator through which a layer can be assigned as an ‘import’ to TP layer, a new feature added to the CameraMap operator to allow it to “freeze” or memorize UV-coordinates at a specific time, etc.
Watch some videos covering the new features on YouTube and find out more on Cebas’ website.
TP 6.2 also comes with a feature that allows to render instantly gaseous effects such as smoke, clouds and fire. TP’s functionality now includes a true volumetric particle point renderer.
Other workflow enhancements include a PPassString operator that allows to access particle groups across ‘hierarchy trees’ just by their name or parts of their name, a LayerToParticle operator through which a layer can be assigned as an ‘import’ to TP layer, a new feature added to the CameraMap operator to allow it to “freeze” or memorize UV-coordinates at a specific time, etc.
Watch some videos covering the new features on YouTube and find out more on Cebas’ website.
Source: Cebas
And this is why I don’t mind a subscription model. The features in the past year far outnumber TP5’s total release.
Subscription price is a little high but I understand a company needs to finance innovation. For me the problem is the TP learning curve. Some say TP is easy but all the Black Boxes I’ve downloaded seem extremely complex. With all the constant upgrades and new programs I have to keep with, it is hard to set aside the time to learn something so complex, even though it is powerful. The new Black Box depository will be useful because I can use the product in production while learning. I wish TP was easier to learn or they had a tutorial the explained the basic concepts for less sophisticated artist, like me.
@ Roger, pls join us at our user community ‘cebas thinking particles’ facebook and ‘cebas Visual Technology Inc.’ Here you will find a lot of learners who has found TP quite easy to use. Both experts and learners gather at this community. Allan McKay (25 years experience working as TD in Hollywood LA) has an intensive 32 weeks program on VFX, inclusive of TP for those with the basics that brings you up level. Cebas is working on other levels as well with regards to bringing in more tutorials. TP will work best for those who have been in CG 3D environment and wanting an advanced tool to simplify complex particle effects. There is a lot of self-taught artists as well. Come join in.
Best regards,
Cedar Thokme (Ms.)
Office/Social Media Coordinator
c.thokme@cebas.com
@ Stark @ Paul.
Thank u Stark. I hope you have joined in our user community at facebook:
(cebas Visual Technology Inc.) https://www.facebook.com/cebasVT
And (cebas thinking particles (user-generated)) https://www.facebook.com/groups/thinkingparticles/
There is a lot of exclusive RnD materials going up there for sharing and everyone learns from everyone.
@Paul – sorry to include you hear but your comments did not come with a visible ‘reply’ button.
For your query, “…how do we modify the parameters/materials for smoke/fire render after caching is done?After all is not a material,technically!”
cebas has released a tutorial yesterday on how-to shockwave’ by Fabian B.: See https://youtu.be/p8PJAB7SbzU?list=PLr2jKyAz7btttJNMA4-N1MD4_DwmzMwe_
Thank u
Best regards,
Cedar Thokme (Ms.)
Office/Social Media Coordinator
c.thokme@cebas.com
http://www.cebas.com.
@ Stark: thanks! Catch the latest on shockwave with TP 6.2: https://youtu.be/p8PJAB7SbzU?list=PLr2jKyAz7btttJNMA4-N1MD4_DwmzMwe_ All the best, cedar.
Yeah, unless this will be useless if you don’t keep paying, also you won’t be able to learn it unless you keep paying outside a project budget, useless…
Give me a rent-to-own or something similar where I can pay and own my licenses and we can talk, up to that point, it does not matter how much improvements come… Just rent license model is bad for users, I won’t stop saying that, and giving an only-rental service is being greedy, also call it “buy” in the store is lying to users, it’s false advertising, you are “renting” not “buying” 😛
Same for me: I would have bought an regular update, but I DO NOT rent software and take the risk to destroy my pipeline when Cebas would close its doors tomorrow. With a regular license I could work for years without problems, with a rent software my project would crash.
OFFER BOTH OPTIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They lost my attention since they forced the rental model.
Juang3d, Your frustration can be comprensible but you never listen. You can learn it for free, just download the trial version.
And as Stark says we had a lot new stuff since it went rental.
This release is awesome, the potential this give to TP combined with all the other physics solvers is amazing.
The learning edition is supremely frustrating not being able to save makes demo useless to learn. You can’t come back to any of your setups so how can you learn.
I like rental model but you have to give the option to rent for a month only, making the minimum rental for a year is unfair to small players.
@pieforme, hi, are you learning with a accredited tutors? cebas do have educational/student licenses that are very competitive. Ad mentioned on one of my replies, please see if you would like to join Allan McKay’s 32-weeks intensive online program called FXTechnical Director Transformation (seats are highly competitive but on a first come first serve basis). This is the only Sponsored Training as a collaborative effort between cebas and a qualified trainer which offers advanced vfx skills (inclusive of TP free for 32 weeks)
Best regards,
Cedar Thokme (Ms.)
Office/Social Media Coordinator
c.thokme@cebas.com
http://www.cebas.com.
Hi
I am learning from a few DVD’s its going well. Learning it self is not the issue its an intuitive system. I just think it would be better to be able to save your progress a bit. When i was first learning it was frustrating as I could only use it when i was on a job and I couldn’t go home and try things. If you want more people to pick up the program you need to improve the learning edition.
Also you should seriously consider having shorter rentals. As a freelancer, I would love to be able to rent it for a few months at time and be able to do some tests on a restricted version on the down time.
I completely agree with what your are saying. I’m a fan of the work done with TP by guys like Eloi, McKay, Anselm, Hristo.
But the student license has a lot of limitations that make learning a pain.
Ultimately, that’s why I decided to learn Houdini instead.
@eloi: thumbs up. Have more powerful fun with 6.2 – u know where to find us 😉
eloi I listen, the thing is that a trial version is not good at all, it could be good to “check” it, but usually in a compnay when you learn something you have to do it for something productiove, something you can use to sell your company or your self, something that you can show in your company reel, or even a personal project, that is not something you can do with the trial version.
So I listen, but the trial does not solve what I say, plus the main thing I always say is not just about learning, it’s about owning because in case I don’t have money I can’t keep working, and as I said many times I’ve been in that situation in the near past, not having a peny at all during a few months except for my house and to pay my people.
I listen, the ones that don’t listen are you guys (in case you are a cebas guy) because you don’t care about that situations, you could plan things to make TP attractive to users using a rent-to-own system, something that can help both parts, something that can give you the continuous cash flow you need but that will give the user the security of owning their tools, but instead of that you’ve reached a model that benefits you, but in the medium and long run don’t benefit the user at all, yea, a lot of new features, but If I don’t have omny every month, IO won’t be able to work.
I’m frustrated because there can be a more beneficial solution for everyone, check Render Legion with Corona, they made their SaaS solution more attractive to users than their Box licenses, BUT they keep the box license for people that prefer to own their license, in my case for example I’m in both systems, I have ONE box license for my own workstation and three nodes, and another SaaS license for the renderfarm and another workstation, I’m happy paying everymonth, but in the case I don’t have money to keep paying I know I still can work with my scenes and I still can modify them.
Don’t tell me I don’t listen when you (agian, in case you are from cebas) ignore people like me and like many others in another forums and here that claim that renting is not a solution for them and that it’s an abuse, and again, in the store you keep saying “buy” when you should say “rent”…
Im not a “Cebas” Guy.
I always say that I understand your frustration, but that you can not talk for everyone when you say things like no one should buy the product because is bad for everyone.
I understand that for some people this model is not good, at the same time I understand for some others is a better solution. I think that you should express your problems to Cebas, if they see there is a number of people not happy with this new system, they will consider a mix payment system.
If I say that is bad for everyone is because I believe it, in the long/medium term it is, not the rent model per se, but the rent ONLY model, if you are happy today win the rent model great, but is not what I’m saying, and of course, I think no one should acquire a piece of rent only software, but let’s be realistic, there are times when you can’t decide what to acquire, right? But the only way to change. Cebas mind if it’s their economy supports this statement, and for that to be true people should understand that they are payin A LOT MORE for A LOT LESS, the is the important thing, in the short term it seems that you pay less, but you are paying way more than before in many ways.
So I won’t stop saying people what I think and that I think this should not be supported.
Did you calculate how much will cost you work when all the companies of software goes rent-only? Monthly? Yearly? And after three years? Calculate that and tell me that this is good for you or your company.
The economy is based on equilibrium, this model breaks that equilibrium and this will hurt a lot of people.
And finally, I don’t talk for everyone, I talk for myself and people that shares the opinion as express, but I truly think this is bad for everyone.
For someone like me, I use it all the time and I want the latest that will make my workflow faster. Plus, if you do the math, the subscription model is cheaper per year than owning it was.
Just the new operator to freeze a UVW is a huge benefit. The old work around to get that effect was so many steps, and just to make it bearable I needed another plugin (XMesh) just to get the effect in a reasonable manner.
I’m sorry you don’t like this model, but for me it just speeds up everything for every update. I remember when Housini 13 came out. That changed everything, and I remember all we had to go on were the 2 TP6 Preview videos for 2 years. Not anymore. I wouldn’t be surprised if TP ends up having a flip solver, finite elements…etc. I look at TP as a standalone environment/program, especially as an FX Artist. $650 a year for all of this stuff is worth it to me.
I tried to explain that the rental model is not the problem, but the rental ONLY, but without success… Also I asked you to make your calcs and check what happens if ALL your software goes on a monthly rental model, check how much are you going to pay in that case each month, but also it seems you are happy with it, not my case, also, have you been in economic struggle at any time? What will you do I that case when you can’t pay for it? Are you going to work with the air?
I understand I’m failing in transmitting the message, the problem is not just YOU,but how this model affects the whole industry and the small and medium businesses, this is not a “me” problem, it’s a problem that will affect everyone specially because it’s a model that it’s being adopted by a lot of companies, and we, the users, their customers, should transmit them that the rental ONLY (please I always remark the word ONLY) is bad for a lot of people.
What happens if they decide to raise the price from 650/year to 1250/year? Maybe Cebas won’t do it, but will you put your hand in the fire for Autodesk? If there is just a rental ONLY model we are screwed because we won’t own any license, so or you keep paying what they want or you stop working or you change from a package to another, what another? I don’t know because there is no serious competitor to Max/Maya for production in the market… So it’s not a “me” problem.
Cheers.
Well.Lets rest the argue.Im wondering how do we modify the parameters/materials for smoke/fire render after caching is done?After all is not a material,technically!
I’m completely agree with Juang3D. It’s a cool option to rent a stuff. But what if I don’t need it for full 1 year. Isn’t a renting, it’s a buying without owning it.
Just imagine if in same manner you rent a car, camera or any other physical stuff. It’s crazy. Same should go to digital licenses.
@Deko: hi 🙂 pls see my replies to Juang. IF you decide to cut after one year. With the previous licensing, you’d have paid cebas $1,695 and with the Subscription License $660. I hope u see it now. And again we don’t use the term ‘rent’ in our environment. Pls refer that term to the folks that first used it. Also, Deko check my other replies on educational licenses. Thz.
cedarTW
Social Media Coordinator
cebas.com
@Juang3d:
Answering you on a personal capacity: you are correct when you say ‘Did you calculate how much will cost you work when all the companies of software goes rent-only? Monthly? Yearly? And after three years? Calculate that and tell me that this is good for you or your company’.
Reply: no one studio or user can buy all the great software in the market so select the few that you work best with. Some smarter artist try different software one after another – with subscription – you can cut it when you want.
cebas is not on ‘rent-only’ – we have a history – and subscription was a company decision in 2014. If you were with us before that, we had the one-time license then. I am sorry you missed it! (and as mentioned we don’t use the term ‘rent’ as we feel this term was not started by the software developers, we consider it a subscription)
Cedar TW
@Juang3d
Thank u for comments. We will take into account. If you feel TP Subscription does not work for you, this is what we have at the moment. There may be some other software in the market that has the model and the pricing that works for you Juang – go for it.
You guys must be selling lots of licenses to answer that.
The best answer, I believe, is that you would look into the subject. At least it shows you guys are thinking of our side. This answer just show you simply don’t care.
If that’s the case, I don’t care anymore. Hope all the best for you guys, but now not even a free full TP learning license interests me.
Agree with MauricioPC.
You just demonstrated that you don’t care at all.
TP5 OWNERS may not upgrade because they will loose what they OWN, so maybe not even the best of the upgrades may convince them to upgrade, if you just want to inform your courrent customers about the new features you already have your newsletter, this is a public statement, not just oriented towards your “informed Subscribers of the new release and if TP 5 Subscribers would like to upgrade”, you seem to have a pretty particular prism to see things, but it’s your own prism, like calling “Subscription” to Renting, no matter if it upgrades or not, it’s renting, I don’t own anything when I stop paying, is renting.
I sincerily hope you reconsider this in the future and you demonstrate that you care about your users AND potential users, because you’ve just sent a client to the trash, and I’m sure a lot more seeing how you resolve the conflicts proposed to you.
Rental only is bad for the user, the annual cost is higher than it is with permanent licenses and you own nothing!
BTW You know that with the cost of TP+MAX in rental during 15 months you can OWN a full license of Houdini FX that offers a lot more than TP, right?
You are right, there is better software out there, and IMO it seems that better companies too.
Fair well
@eloi, I am from cebas and do vouch that eloi is one of our most valued Subscribers, like many established vfx artists, and we are very appreciative that eloi has taken the trouble to actually reply (as a user) to the comments here. Thank you Eloi! We all start somewhere don’t we? Complaining never helps 🙂
(my contact is as stated)
@Juang, Aeheah, Cyb3r (hope u don’t mind me killing three birds with one stone as you all were addressing more or less the same issue 🙂 ) Herewith, kindly find my answers:
All software trial version are for trial only, and cebas is no exception. We do hear you but you need to research more. The speed with which vfx and 3D software are moving would render TP quite outdated within a year or two so in the long run, you actually save (or if you prefer – you don’t save – but you do not end up paying more). Terminology like ‘rent’ / ‘own’ is not practical. So I own Windows 8… now everyone is getting on Windows 10. If someone looses employment or studio closes, or even say, cebas closes, please note that the version you have still works. Reiterating the example, I can use continue Windows 8 and not want Windows 10, it still works but it does not include the power, speed and new features of Windows 10.
It was a management decision at cebas Visual Technology based on current trends and our company goals that the Subscription model works best both ways (sorry, we don’t consider it ‘rental’). For the license, you don’t really just pay once and you are done – TP was priced at $1,695 and after a year or two you would need to / if you want to… upgrade to new version at a price (it’s not free either, correct?). Please Read the Subscription License at https://www.cebas.com/images/pdfs/SubscriptionLicensemodel_tP6.0.pdf (answers to many of your queries, if you care to learn the processes of how to manage software in your organization).
Now, a Subscription License costs you $55/month (affordable to most professionally working artist, (and btw, we do have educational licenses at $145) which works out to be $660 / annual and this INCLUDES all subsequent updates, ongoing and instantly available and a host of tech support where needed.
In other words, You will see that what cebas did was simply spread out the cost and view software development and upgrade in the long term (we don’t plan for closing down scenarios, we do strategize against it but we don’t based our company goals on ‘do this because we presume we all are closing down sooner or later. If you are running a business, I am sure you’d understand.)
Now, cebas understand that some may feel $55/ month is too high, especially in developing countries and at this point there is no way for cebas to charge different rates for different countries. We do take the trouble for those vfx artists genuinely interested in TP and as mentioned, if they are in training with proper college credentials, we help them with the full version of TP at student rates of just $145. We do not feel that $55/month for a software like TP 6 including all its upgrade constitute an unreasonable sum.
Do email me at c.thokme@cebas.com for further questions. Thank you.
Best regards,
Cedar Thokme (Ms.)
Office/Social Media Coordinator
c.thokme@cebas.com
There is a key thing in what you say:
“and after a year or two you would need to / if you want to… upgrade”
The key thing is “need to / if you want to”, but what about if I don’t want to, but I want to keep working with my license, what if what I want is to be able to modify/access my previous work with my previous license? What if I’m in an economic problem and I can’t afford the license, you say 55$, please don’t look only for your license, but if we go on renting with everything, becuase yes, it’s renting, I pay for something for a limited time, so it’s renting, in a friendly way I tell you that it does not matter what you want to call it, it’s rent, not acquiring, not buying, but renting, you can call it subscription, but it’s not, when I suscribe to a magazine I receive my magazine and if I cancel my subscription I still can have my already received magazines, even in digital subscription, I had a 3dworld subscription, I canceled it, I don’t receive new ones, but I have access to my old ones, that is a subscription, when I cancel it I have what I received during it, in what you do is to rent a license for a limited time.
You are ignoring users that don’t want to rent, that want to pay, maybe a bit more, I’m not speaking about price here, but about acquiring ways, and keep their license with them, and you are completely ignoring them, I knopw it was a company decission, like any company all the decissions are a company decision, this does not make it any better, this does not make any better the fact that you cuold have done the same as others, a rent-to-own like allegorythmic, or a two way license, acuqiring a bit more priciey or with less leverages but having a permanente licenses, or paying for a rent, but no, your company decided to ignore that people that don’t want to rent, and that is what I’m critizising, an ONLY RENT model, I always remark the word ONLY.
If you see that this is so great for users, why not keep the permanent license as an option? this way you can have everyone happy, instead of that you decided to go for the rent only way, and that is not cool at all, this is wanting more cash flow without caring about users, if you care about users you care about giving options, and you are not giving options at all.
Also you keep saying 55/month, I’m sorry but that is not true because you have to pay 55/month for a complete year, and again, when I say to make accounts you have to think in a small/medium company/freelance needs, if all the software companies goes on a renting model then please, use a calculator, at least me I’m going to be in a position that I’m not going to be able to afford workign on this anymore, it can go up to 500$/month just to work!!!!! so in a month where I could have economic troubles I won’t be able to work at all!!! so I won’t be able to go out of trouble because I won´t have my tools!!!
Let’s take as an example:
Entertainment creation suite Premium (max and maya, basic tools for a generalist studio) – 453,75€
TP – 55€ (if I don’t have the upper software I don’t need TP)
Adobe Suite – 60,49
Corona – 60€ for 1 workstation / 10 render nodes
This is a basic package and we are in 629,24.
Let’s use the calculator nowadays
Autodesk Suite – 1100€ subs
TP – theorethical cost with a yearly upgrade – 600€
Adobe – theoretical yearly upgrade – 600€
Corona upgrade if you are not in box+subs (theoretical)(that is a sibscription BTW) – 250€
So yearly cost = 2550€ /person
Now lets imagine a two persons studio with 20 render nodes = 1258.48/month
PLEASE OMG !!! 1258.48 JUST TO BE ABLE TO WORK!!! THIS IS 15101.76/YEAR
Can you tell me how in anyones mind can be this good for the user???????
If I have to pay 1200€/year to upgrade my license of TP I will be happy to do it!
Rental only model may be “good” for you, but it’s BAD for the user, no matter how you look at it, and the worst part is that you don’t care, you don’t even think in small business and/or freelances, I can assure you that I won’t be able to pay 15101,76€/year just to be able to work.
15101.76€/year, please, think about it…
Thanks for answering anyways.
Hey man,
I get the subscription thing can suck totally agree with you on that one, but I actually think Cebas got it right in this one, I mean I used to look at TP as something that would be completely out of my reach at the price point it was at, but what I like is they have changed it to subscription yes, but they have also significantly reduce the price, to me that is a win. I mean even on the old pricing, how much was it to upgrade, the way I see this, I’ve got 3 years worth of subscription with free upgrades, thats a pretty good deal!
@ Ani Thumbs Up! cebas is happy that, like many others, understand our strategy for long term development 🙂
Do catch up with TP 6.2 tutorials at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24A4788FkCg&list=PLr2jKyAz7btttJNMA4-N1MD4_DwmzMwe_
Ani and the rest avid and quick learners, cebas is geared towards simplifying vfx operators for your complex sequences. blackBoxes help in this regard as well. With the development of the new features, you will find that the goal really is to let artists do more with more power and speed and less time consume since time is always a factor. Things are moving so fast nowadays, that it becomes important for those who has a good grasp of the basics that a 15-20 minute tutorial would have given you an upskill on vfx.
All the best,
cedar for cebas
juang is right, I would have bought it too, if it would not be for renting only. I DO NOT RENT SOFTWARE ! So I stick with the Adobe CS6, no upgrade anymore. The same with TP and other tools, I want to buy it and I need to buy it, otherwise I couldn´t even sign my contracts, because I cannot guarantee from my side to restore backups after 5 years, it is a deal breaker for my clients, so it is for me.
This looks more like a new version that just an update. Smoke driving rigid bodies with bullet cool. Going to have to try this new stuff out soon. Cebas is cranking out the development.
Thanks Matt. Pls see my other comments 🙂
Feel free to email me at c.thokme@cebas.com and join in our facebook ‘cebas thinking particles’ user community for the latest RnD.
cedar for cebas.
You guys have to keep in mind that next year Max goes rent only as well.
I see this as the only reason Autodesk has been so good with the features… They need to convince us that renting is good. But they could do all those updates in the buy system.
As for TP, I was considering to buy the student license for $140. But with Houdini Apprentice being free, what’s the point?
@MauricioPC:
If you are on maintainance subscription ( which is the best deal anyway if you plan to stay current) you still get the perpetual license and updates. This is the only thing the makes sense too me, hence i renewed my subscritpion for 3 yrs. at once .
I too will NOT RENT SOFTWARE EVER – NEVER EVER, except of course if i have to run a studio and have a need to upscale/downscale as the work situation dicdates.
I agree to many things what you are saing Juang3d, supscription is a bad thing when it comes to private persons (like me), but a bigger studio can afford it, and cebas aims at studios = big money in time. For a private person it’s 540 euro/year, and if you don’t continue to pay, you loose youre license, and that is not fun.
I can agree that cebas should arrange a model to still be able to buy the plugin, some kind of edu/private person price model, but for most companies, this model is good I think. I mean, if a studio just need tp for a specific project, they can rent it for xx months, then leave it.
@Stefan, pls see cebas replies above. We do have educational/student licensing. For learning, many Autodesk software are free for students. $55/month for a professionally engaged vfx artist is a good offer.
Please join us at facebook, ‘cebas Thinking Particles’ group – lots of RnD posted.
cedar for cebas.
I thought this post was about TP 6.2 not business.
Matt this is not just about TP 6.2, but about it’s licensing model, a model that is going to be bad for any user, please check the numbers:
Entertainment creation suite Premium (max and maya, basic tools for a generalist studio) – 453,75€
TP – 55€ (if I don’t have the upper software I don’t need TP)
Adobe Suite – 60,49
Corona – 60€ for 1 workstation / 10 render nodes
This is a basic package and we are in 629,24/month
Let’s use the calculator nowadays
Autodesk Suite – 1400€ subs
TP – theorethical cost with a yearly upgrade – 600€
Adobe – theoretical yearly upgrade – 600€
Corona upgrade if you are not in box+subs (theoretical)(that is a sibscription BTW) – 250€
So yearly cost = 2850€ /person, and BTW this is optional, I can decide what to upgrade and what not, because I OWN my licenses.
Now lets imagine a two persons studio with 20 render nodes = 1258.48/month
PLEASE OMG !!! 1258.48 JUST TO BE ABLE TO WORK!!! THIS IS 15101.76/YEAR
Are you going to pay 15101.76/year to be able to work?
That’s a lot of money. I don’t like the rental system also. The major problem is Autodesk is also doing next year. I hope they maintain the Creative Suites with a buy option. That way I can still use AD stuff.
Or I should just go to Modo and Houdini.
Why do you need Entertainment creation suite Premium? I only need max.
I can not afford 3500 + 1600 + subscription/upgrade.
But, I can afford 125 + 55 per month.
125+taxes you mean, right?
So you can expend 2475/year, but you cannot reach an agreement with your bank for a loan to be paid in two years for about 5100 (based on your numbers) or even 5700 (max subs being 600)… How in earth are you going to be able to purchase a car? And what are you going to do the month/months you cannot pay that? Because this time can come you know, are you going to stop working? And then how are you going to recover yourself?.
The difference between paying the full license (and own it) and paying the renting is that you own the license, if there is a month where you cannot pay your loan your can get an agreement with your bank, even in the worst cases your license is yours at least for enough time to recover yourself up, in the case you cannot pay the loan you can still work.
In three years you are going to pay A LOT more that you could have paid buying a license and owning it, in for years we better don’t speak about it, and go on and on, and your costs suddenly multiply, and now picture a situation, Autodesk decides to double the 3dsmax rate, and picture your self in a situation where you cannot pay 250€/month just for max, then what are you going to do? Because if you don’t own anything you are out of game.
In our case we need Maya and Max because we are generalists and we deliver different services to different clients, sometimes we need Maya for animation (performance and capabilities are way beyond from max capabilities) and there are times when we need to do some viz,and max shines on it, and finally the render is always done in max and corona.
BTW how are you going to render things? With mental Ray? Because in your numbers there is no render engine license, and what about photoshop and such things? Are you not using it?because there is no money for that either, I think you have to raise your numbers a bit to be realistic, and a suddenly you don’t pay just 200€/month just to be able to work, but you pay around 330€/month just to be able to work,and again, this is as of today, in the future if there is a price raising, you won’t be able to decide, because or you accept their pricing or you stop working, there are no more options… Cool eh?
Thankfully, there are Photoshop alternatives popping up. I’m hopeful we won’t need Photoshop that much in the next few years.
As for why the Suites? Well, because I could own them. Instead of small payments that would lead to a huge amount, I would rather pay a larger up-front payment that entitles me to owing what I bought and that will lead to a smaller amount on the long run.
If I work for the month 330 is nothing.
If I don’t work for the month, I would not rent.
If you don’t like rental, that’s cool.
That’s your opinion.
But, enough is enough.
This article has nothing to do with rental.
This is not about rental, again, this is about rental ONLY, and as much as you like to discard this as something not valid, there is a lot of conversation here, and as Jonathan pointed out, this is a perfect valid place to discuss something, specially when we are in a post that talks about a RENTAL ONLY piece of software…
If you don’t like it, IMHO, don participate, no one is forcing you, and as I said, you can access the original post information without having to read all this conversation.
And finally, you should think in more people, not just in you, we all pass over different situations in our life, sometimes we have moeny, sometimes don’t, sometimes we are free to decide, sometimes we are not, so you may be able to pay that 330€,(BTW Max alone paying month to month is 242€) again, you did not think in price changes, and other plugins and software needed and obbligations, like the one PT is putting you, at least a year, so, you won’t decide if you want to pay or not the month you don’t have a job, and if you don’t rent without a job, how are you going to learn anything?, IMHO thinking just in your own situation in cases like this is pretty selfish, but hey, it’s just my opinion.
totally agree with juan, rental only is a business model chosen by companies. If they were thinking on what’s best for the users, they would offer more options.
so if you want to open a scene you worked on two months ago you need to rent the plugin again? that’s stupid…
and yes, you can call it subscription instead of rental, or you can call it chocolate, but it’s still rental
@cedar tw
In terms of learning/training opportunities for people not inside schools, who have/want to do it in their free time. I don’t think your student license covers this. For those people the trial is next to useless given that people can’t save. I get it that you have to build restrictions somewhere because of piracy. But than at least limit the amount of particles you are able to generate and or disable export etc. Offer an apprentice version like houdini does for example.
Additionally about renting TP:
I for one don’t mind renting software. Hell I have an Adobe CC subscription (complete package). The difference here is Adobe’s price is pretty competitive because of the amount of software you get to use and you can choose for how long you want to rent. (You can pay monthly or annually)
The subscription model might be 55$ a month but you are paying for one year. This sucks for smaller studios who might have only one job coming up where TP would come in handy. So we have to pay for a whole year when we might just need the plugin for a month or two.
I don’t see what is so wrong about going with a rent to own system. You get more people who are willing to try tp because of lower entry cost (opposed to the pre rental TP price). And after people have paid a certain threshold can rest assured that tool in its state by the end of that threshold is theirs to use forever. People want that security if the going gets rough not only in job but if real life problems occur and the money is tight.
A system like that doesn’t mean cebas would have to stop its subscription system. After the threshold is reached people obviously can have the option to keep their subscription to receive upgrades to the plugin etc.
Amen to that Mokiki, and let me add a thing, I think that people will be happy to continue on the renting model after they own the license, there is no reason to stop receiving new features as long as you can pay for it, but they can be safe knowing that they own their tool and if the bad times come they will be able to keep working.
I think that is the best solution to companies that need constant cash flow, but it’s also a solution for users that want to own their own licenses, not rent them.
@Mokiki: we have a student version that is very reasonable at $145. And I agree with Matt that our announcement is to informed Subscribers of the new release and if TP 5 Subscribers would like to upgrade as a lot of hard work went into 6.2. Thanks for appreciating.
(And no, we are not even close to half the size of Adobe!)
But the student license is bound to being a student right?
In regards to not being even half the size of Adobe doesn’t matter. In terms of subscription/rental services you are measured by the competition. Additionally in terms of credentials you guys have is nothing to hide behind. According to your own homepage your plugin is used in the most vfx demanding Hollywood productions today.
@Mokiki, hi, how are you? The student license of $145 (three years) has to be for students only. If you are working there is no reason for you to have the student license. And no software company has any specials for non-students who are in transit to working. If you are testing things out, you can use the free unlimited trial like everyone else.
cedar for cebas
SideFx – Houdini Apprentice.
Yes, SideFX does that with Houdini Apprentice. And you don’t need to be a student to have access to it and learn, save, test, render, etc.
Nuke?
Fusion? DaVinci Resolve?
BTW Cedar, just in case you don’t see the answer, I wrote you after your message to me.
@Juang3D
Title of this post has nothing to do with industry software prices or models. Some how you’ve turned this thread into that.
“ThinkingParticles 6.2 brings smoke operators and atmospheric rendering effects”
I try to post my opinion in every place where I see RENT ONLY software, so the people don’t get in what I think it’s a trick and a bad arrangement for them, and also so the companies can read my opinion and maybe others opinions.
So I did not turn anything into anything, I posted my opinion and this lead to a more full conversation between a lot of people.
But in any case, I’m not deleting or modifying or doing anything to the post itself, this is just the comments area, you can access the original information without problem.
Cheers.
I believe the majority of artists dislike rental models. And it is rental, it’s just that companies realize that the word rental doesn’t sound good. The word subscription used to mean for printed magazines. I still have all my magazines that I used to subscribe to. I still flip through them from time to time. Point is I own them, all the magazines I got while on a subscription, I still own. If I subscribe to TP, and for one reason or another can’t pay for my subscription, I loose TP. That doesn’t jive with the word subscription.
According to the dictionary:
the right to receive a periodical for a sum paid, usually for an agreed number of issues.
No one is coming to my house to take away all the magazines I got while on a subscription. If you really cared about users, offer both solutions. That goes for Autodesk and every other company going rental only too.
This is a very interesting comment thread in my opinion. Especially because of juang3ds point of view. Which makes sense for me. A lot of people want to spend their money to OWN something, not to rent something. This should be respected. You can rent your car or you can buy your own car, which will be your car forever. The same thing with a house or apartment. Maybe you buy a DVD because its a film you really like. You will watch it one time. So actually rent it for 48 h would have been cheaper. But you want to own maybe just to have the certainty you can watch it whenever you want or not. For me it just feels wrong to spent my money for something if there is nothing left after some time. Except food 😉
@matt
I think its good to use the comment section here on cpress also for things like this. Even if it does not exactly has something to do with the news title. Think about “the” big Max thread which was a great happening here in my opinion.
@Jonathan / Mike / Jumanji etc. Definitions:
Subscription: you subscribe to something that upgrades
Rental: you rent something temporary (that you certainly do not own either,and it definitely does not upgrade itself) So Subscription it is as we don’t feel Renting gives us, the developers, the justice to the effort we put in,
In all real world examples I can think of that aren’t software, if I subscribe to something I can keep and carry on using everything I received when I was on subscription, even after my subscription has expired.
That is clearly not the case with software subscription. I am paying money to use something, and when I stop paying then I can no longer use it. That is most definitely rental.
I’m really getting tired of software companies thinking we are all too stupid to notice the difference. If it’s rental, then call it rental, but don’t try and make up reasons why the marketing department is calling it something else.
Personally I think rental is great, especially when I have to expand a team for a short time. But I really hate the fact that so many companies are going over to having rental *only*. That includes Autodesk, Adobe, and in this thread Cebas. There are obviously people that want to buy permanent licenses, so why not let them?
@Dave, cebas do understand your request and management do hear your comments. Let’s see what happens. We are developers for 3ds Max, with Autodesk and they too will be going on subscription as that is the way now strategically, I believe if you had purchased TP 5 — quite a number of vfx-ers are still on it and Cinema4D folks I believe are on an even earlier version of TP and not all of them needed to upgrade. Artists as professionals upgrade their tools according to the needs of their work. Software developing gives upgraded tools to address greater complexity and capability of FX work, so for those who may not need some of the powerful tools that TP 6 have, they can continue using TP 5 or earlier. It is the same that if MS windows is on 10 now that MS don’t propose you deliberately purchase a windows 9. The either or is not available for most software companies.
We will keep an open mind. All the best to your work Dave.
cedar for cebas
Agreed, Dave. No matter the term used to call it or how much they sugarcoat it the rental-only model means that artists are no longer able to own the tools they use to produce art.
Throughout history many talented artists went through periods of poverty. Think of the amount of great art we would’ve collectively lost if their tools had been taken away and they had been asked to pay rent to be able to use them.
We all understand that software development takes great effort and that companies need and have the right to make a good income, but it should not be done by taking away artists’ ownership of their tools. As companies like Allegorithmic have shown very successfully, there are other ways.
Cedar for Cebas wrote:
> We will keep an open mind.
That’s great to hear. A good number of artists are asking explicitly for an option, so hopefully we will hear more soon. 🙂
@Cedar
Interesting to see how you treat Dave and how you treated me… I assume you think I’m no one…
I’ll put this into a mother words: if Autodesk throws himself over a bridge will you follow “him” ?
Renting is not good for users at all, and in the long run it won’t be good for you either, but hey, keep your pretty dreams thinking that we all are going to pay each month 500€ just to be able to work, and that is what is going to happen when Autodesk starts it’s only renting venture, and this will be bad for you because a plugin will be the first of the things you will be cutting out from your monthly costs, so you will be on first line of fire for sure… Specially when you can acquire a Houdini indie license, or a permanent one if you gain more than 100.000€/year…
Maybe I missed it while reading. But is it confirmed that Tp will stop working when subscription ends, or will you simply not be eligible to receive updates, but Tp will keep working. I suspect it will stop as that is what the rental model implies, but can it be confirmed? I so much more favor the buy and subscription model over renting it makes me really bad that blender will be an alternative in the future…
Yes, TP will stop working when the subscription ends, the license is set to 365 days when you buy it, and the day after it says 364 days and so on and after 365 days, TP stops from working due you don’t have a license anymore.
I agree to Juang3d, cebas must get a option to be able to keep the license when you bought it.