(Updated) Cebas has made available more videos and information about the new release. Head over to Cebas’ site.
Cebas has released a video showcasing some of the updates that will be included in ThinkingParticles 6 which is set to be released today. This latest release includes soft bodies, a fluid solver, and multi-physics. For more details, you can watch the video on the Cebas Youtube channel.
ThinkingParticles 6 is out
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http://www.fxguide.com/quicktakes/thinkingparticles-v6-is-released-with-new-pricing/
Expectable with Adesk’s move… who’d invest in a plugin for rental software?
Congratulations to Cebas for a feature-packed new release. The new Bullet is much improved and the fluids, hydrofields, softbodies and spline solvers add a great new set of tools to work with.
Wow big release! Very impressive. Of course the pricing is quite a bit of a surprise.
I sure it is a great tool.
BUT WHY ARE YOU doing this price structure ??????????????
I want to own the software, I want to keep the software !! As a studio, you have to keep backups of your old projects and be sure to open the scene files after a few years. You can´t guarantee that with a subscription , maybe cebas will not exisiting anymore ? Or you do not get the old version which was running well for that ? And you can´t sell a license anymore ! And you can´t buy a license with money from during a big job and use it even in financial bad times, because YOU OWN IT !!!!!!!!
If you want “the best” for the client /Studio what you are claim, then you have to let him or her do the decision and offer the rent model AND keep the buy model ! If you are not offer him both, then you do NOT want the best for your client, you just want to make him pay and pay and pay….
I dislike the new licensing scheme, I think they should recover the permanent license and maintain it along the rent license.
They do this already with their Moskito render engine.
Cheers.
Really nice combo of new features! Hydro, fluids, softbodies,… But also de spline system will give a boost in productivity when doing this type of things.
I really think there needs to be a safety net of a perpetual license.
I don’t do enough hardcore particle/simulation stuff to get involved in TP, but I would imagine in most of these cases an option to have perpetual + upgrades every 2 years would be acceptable to most users.
this is really too bad. i planned on getting this plugin and am aware of the possibilities but the rental model does not suit me. really disappointed by it.
funny thing is, they also mention how great this is for the end consumer, yet offer it as only possibility.
i am aware that this model suits the developer cashflow wise, but saying the rental is 2.5 times cheaper is actually pretty disingenuous.
i am demoing the thinkbox software and will be getting those. sadly no tp6 for me.
i actually blame moslty adsk for this. man i am really starting hating them hard.
I see the pros and cons for the rental, but mainly the pros. Why? I’ve held back from getting Tp for the HUGE reason being it was a big hit financially off the bat. The rental price essentially negates the big upfront hit. The yearly price of the rental IS worth 2.5x years that equals the current purchasing price. Plus, I can effectively cancel my rental at any moment. Since I am not on consistent jobs that need it, it’s great I can stop the rental. Given Cebas’s progress on Tp, I trust them in their thorough development of the plugin whereas it’s tough to trust Autodesk (although max 2016 IS looking very cool so far – a really good release). So I for one WILL be looking into Tp now that it is more affordable.
The only con is I would expect what I purchase to be mine, but seeing as how the tide’s are slowly shifting in our industry it appears to be sink-or-swim. Adapt, or fall behind, but I can’t imagine Tp could have been very profitable for them not having a major release the past few years so I get this for a business reason as well.
I just wonder if we have a Tp Max file and our rental lapsed, can we still open the file and be able to at least view/render out Tp work, or will it be broken? I wouldn’t be shocked if we couldn’t, but it would great if we could Cebas. 😉 Like those plugins out there where you just need the license to do the creation/editing, but rendering can be done for free.
Now AUTODESK Max or Maya is a different beast since it’s not a plugin, but what drives the plugins. The main application. While plugins may cover certain areas, but aren’t always necessary, these main applications cover most of our needs so actually owning them is necessary. So that’s unfortunate they’ve let Adobe set this sad precedent that could lead to other forms of acquiring applications.
This wouldn’t be so bad if you could pay per month and cancel any time but you have to rent for a whole year. They should have taken a look at Corona’s blog post about SaaS.
Personally I could maybe use TP only for a few projects a year so it doesn’t make sense to rent it for a who 12 months.
That being said, it looks freaking amazing!
I think the corona guys have it right. If you want to sell as a service you need to allow short term contracts. I think unity also has this terrible policy of having to rent as least a year.
But at least you can acquire a Unity license instead of rent it, I own it, I will never rent it, or rent any other software…
Cheers.
They should really rethink their current policy and allow people to buy a permanent license and let people rent the software on a monthly or at least a 3 month basis.
since going freelance I miss the TP licence my former employer owned. as a generalist I have need for such a tool only 1-2 month a year. this new pricing model means I will never use that toolset again 🙁 which is sad, because I really liked it
maybe I’ll buy TP5, cancel my 3dsMax subscription and try to reach pension with no updates from now on 😀 Max2014 forever! 🙂
The answer is simple – Houdini
Is it? Their rentals and annual cost seem quite expensive.
Houdini Indie is about $200 annually.
In Europe, where I am from, Houdini perpetual license is still cheaper than Max or Maya. ..and for VFX it is an one stop shop plus I am confident they will improve the modeling tools and workflows
Is it? Let’s look at the prices from the websites.
Houdini FX – 4,495 USD + 2,495 USD/year (starting from the second year, first year it’s free)
3ds Max – 3,675 USB + 625 USD/year.
Now, since the comparison between 3ds Max and Houdini are more on the FX side of things, to compare with Houdini we need to add some other things.
RealFlow 2014 – 2,500 USD
FumeFX – 845 USD
Thinking Particles – 660 USD/year
RayFire – 385
So … Houdini FX for 6,990 USD (total investment if you count the sub on the first year) and you OWN the software.
3ds Max + necessary plugins for 8690 USD and you don’t own Max and TP. Who knows if in the future you won’t be able to own FumeFX and RayFire as well.
Anyway … giving the track record of Autodesk, one can see that maybe SideFX or even C4D and Modo (not for FX) are better options.
You don’t need Realflow/RayFire if you use TP.
But, you need to have at least modo if you use Houdini.
You still own max, max rental has not even been announced yet.
How would you so sure SideFX would not go rental in the future?
More than half of their product is already RENTAL ONLY.
Well, tP still don’t do fluids as RealFlow. It may get there, but than again, it may not.
As for RayFire … I count as important. If you talk to every Max FX artist, they’ll say RayFire is a must.
As for the rental subject … I’m still using the student license. I’m not sure that SideFX will maintain the purchase of perpetual license. I do hope so. But Autodesk already said they want to have everything rental. Why do you think Cebas already took the step for this? People won’t buy a plugin (in my view) if they can’t buy a software. It’s better to just rent all.
Let me just tell you again … I love 3ds Max. I think for the generalist, it’s the best tool. It has the better modeling tools, PFlow is great (although it need to be multi-threaded), lots of free plugins that are helpful, great plugins, etc etc. But … and that’ a big but … if you like FX, you are seeing a trend of good tools coming to Maya, you are seeing good plugins going rental only (as tP), you don’t need Max improve that much performance, etc etc. So for me … if it goes rental, I don’t want it anymore. If the day comes when ALL software is rental, than we are scr*wed. But until then, I’ll go for the software that still gives you an option.
And just one last thing. You said before that Houdini is all hype, but you mentioned Modo. For me, Modo is a lot more hype than Houdini. It’s been sell as a revolution in modeling, which I don’t think so. For me, Max is still a better modeling all around and it has some sort of proceduralism.
Cheers! 😀
Houdini, is not the answer.
3d needs to be simple not complicated.
Well Well. I’m very surprise on this matter. Coming from Cebas. I call this communist!!!!!!!!! I should have a freedom to choose what I want. This is a free country. Buy or Rent you have the choice. You really should think it over Edwin on what you’re doing. I really don’t mind if I have to pay more to keep it. I’m not a renter. If you’re going throw with this, well I’m not upgraded. And as you can see from other users are going to follow the same suit.
Sorry for the long post, but some things I just need to say 🙂
First of all: Mr. Jason, if what you’re saying was true, there would be no 3d at all, because when this industry was getting born there was no such thing as ‘easy’ – and if anyone’s thinking in terms of progress and skill evolution, than taking the easiest path should really be acompanioned with caution.
Second: Houdini is not complicated. It’s extemely unified, clear and logical to the bone.
Just because you need some knowledge to work efficiently, doesn’t mean it’s complicated. It only means you need more knowledge – that’s it. And I’m not talking about ‘higher maths’ because that’s what you get done by SideFX. I mean: understanding foundations of your domain as a FX TD. In return you get endless possibilities and tools you would not even dream about because as a 3dsMax user you never had a chance.
@MauricioPC: you forgot about one little thing. Everyone needs to finally render their FX. With every single Houdini licence you get unlimited Mantra nodes which can compete with Arnold and Renderman with ease.
To give you some background. I was a max user since always. I was a TP fan and user since version 3 and used it almost every day. I was faithfull follower to the B#$sh@t sold by autodesk every year ever since I heard about XBR. My patience just faded away about a year ago and I decided for a change.
I did my first commercial work with Houdini about 6 months ago. I’ve not seen 3ds max for 6 months now. No plugins. No data exchange. No more b#%ls$#t.
It was very hard after 15-or-so years with max. But I need to add one more thing to the equation: now I actually understand what it means to get a support from the company your’re paying for the maintenace. Every single question I asked was answered at most the second working day. This means your problems get actually solved DURING the project – not after a year or never.
You find your bugs fixed in the daily builds – and not when they finally decide to announce a service pack (or not).
I could go forever… like native and transparent multithreaded architecture. The best solvers on the market (maybe except cloth, for now)…
And getting back to the topic: could I at least see just one glass of water done with TP6 which does not look like realflow 2.0 …? Please. Is the rental pricing your biggest concern here? Because for me this upgrade is a joke. Probably, in just about a month, you’ll understand why.
Cheers.
Mantra nodes which can compete with Arnold and Renderman with ease.
Wow… then why most shops are paying for Arnold and Renderman?
Why Houdini users are asking VRay for Houdini?
I guess all Houdini users are rich!
Wait.. then why do they need Indie?
Hi,
>> Mantra nodes which can compete with Arnold and Renderman with ease.
>> Wow… then why most shops are paying for Arnold and Renderman?
Because: a) Arnold is much easier out of the box, the learning curve is minimal, and results are impressive although it might not be the fastest renderer in general… b) there are still tons of renderman experts who do miracles with it and most shops already payed for it some time ago c) the truth is MOST shops are mixing Mantra and others, but we are talking about FX rendering, right? that’s where Matra takes the prime and is more than enough especially for a freelancer.
>> Why Houdini users are asking VRay for Houdini?
I don’t know any of them, so I’ll guess everybody wants everything 🙂
but most of the ones I know were asking for Arnold not for Vray
>>I guess all Houdini users are rich!
>>Wait.. then why do they need Indie?
They don’t. Most Houdini users pay for the incredible suppport. Cost of the software itself is relatively low comparing to Max (with Fume, TP, frost, Krakatoa, rayfire, Stoke, Realflow + renderer) But if they have low enough income they can use it. Anyways Indie is an offer mostly for game dev in my opinion.
I don’t know why, but it seems Houdini guys think all max users need realflow.
If I follow logic, MentalRay is as good as Mantra.
If you want to put renderer in calculation, you should put Arnold in calculation.
Now TP has mesher, therefore you don;t need frost anymore.
I know RayFire is sweet, but I never needed it since TP can do anything Rayfire does.
But, wait.. how about modeling? Du you really want to model in Houdini? You probably need at least Modo.
Can u say Houdini is cheaper?
How about yearly maintenance?
$2,500 EVERY YEAR?
I think Houdini guys are really rich!
If you reed my post above, you’ll see that Houdini with maintenance is
still cheaper than Max and the plethora of plugins needed to do the same
thing as Houdini.
As far as your opinion of rich Houdini artists, that’s very simplistic of you.
Max users need RealFlow because the discussion here is Houdini and Max
for FX, not for Archviz or Character Modeling. In those areas, it’s
obvious you need Max and not Houdini.
And sorry … while I’m still learning Mantra, I’ll say that from what
I’ve seen, Mantra is A LOT better than Mental Ray.
But if you’re on denial, what can we do? It’s best to just continue
using 3ds Max, the software made for the poor artist … now, with a
rental plan that’s quite cheap! 😉
Yes, FX guys in general need solvers for smoke, fire and WATER. None of this is available in max or TP. (When I see anything resembling a real liquid done with TP I can take this back). TP has a mesher? Ha. Take it into production, try to transfer some attributes, mesh something else than tP, compare the speed and you’re back with Frost. We also need fragmentation methods that go beyond simple and ugly voronoi which might have been good enough 5 years ago. Today it goes toward DMM/FEM or at least some good post-processing which is impossible without Stoke/Genome/Rayfire.
You don’t follow the logic at all, that’s your problem, man. You just choose from what you have – not from what is possible today. Try rendering a few hundred thousands instanced particles with mental ray in max. Or maybe do some hair/fur with it and render with GI. (As a sidenote: apart from Fume, Realflow, TP, Frost, Rayfire, Stoke, Krakatoa I forgot about Ornatrix/HairFarm and Afterburn which should’ve been included with Fume for a long time IMHO). And than you render every second effect with different renderer. Wow that’s PROoo! Compo guys gonna love you 😉
As in my other post: nothing is as valueable as maintence at SideFX. It’s about support not the upgrades (which kick ass every year anyway).
PS. doing FX work I don’t do much modelling. But I have Wings/Blender/Silo if I had to. Actually cheaper software than any plugin for max.
PS2. Are we taking from FX guy perspective or generalist?
Max users are so hopeful and faithful. When in comes to work I’d rather choose being rich… but then again: a rich artist? Doesn’t sound too good. Keep the faith bro!
I get where Jason is coming from – it’s more about where your market is.
Sure if you’re a proficient FX TD you should be able to cope, but I wouldn’t ignore the (possibly larger) market, like broadcast/events who are after the more quick and dirty particle effects.
TP has always been pitched as the harder to learn plugin which had always put me off (and the price would make it the most expensive plugin I bought)
For someone not doing particle/effects work day in/day out it is hard for me to justify – and having a rental model that’s locked to a yearly cycle (if that’s what it is), is the worst aspect of a bad model for users.
If you absolutely must go for a rental, people need to be able to pick it up on a weekly basis, otherwise I would be paying for something I might not be using for half the year, which effectively doubles the rental cost.
Jason is right. @Łukasz Sobisz, that’s a bold statement from someone that admits he’s only used houdini for 6 months. I remember when I first learned houdini too….at home…on my personal time. Wait til you have to finish shots under a deadline. IFD’s are great…oh and writing out SDF’s for every collision is so awesome too. Get over it. Houdini is all hype. It’s a reason for people to call themselves TD’s. FX isn’t that hard anymore. Houdini is trying to keep that mentality..because well, it IS hard in houdini. It’s workflow is somewhat archaic. Everytime I do a houdini job..which isn’t lately because all the houdini shops have shut down (also tells you something) I consider it a vacation. You get months upon months with 50-100 other fx guys to make playblasts under a huge pipeline that has been in place for years. Sony, DD, RH….they’re all doing great right? HA. When it comes down to it. These software companies don’t owe us ANYTHING. TP has introduced fluids for the first time. Houdini introduced fluids back with Houdini 9 when they changed the interface. It was garbage. It’s gotten better, sure, it’s actually the only thing I’d go to houdini for these days..liquids, but now with Bifrost…I probably won’t. TP has always been ahead of the game with ease of use and efficiency. You want to add a bunch of math nodes to make yourself feel smart? you can do that in TP. Shots get done by the artist, not how big your node network is. Get over it.
Did you actually read what I’ve written? I DID not say that I’ve used Houdini for 6 months. I said that I did my first commercial work with it 6 months ago. Oh, and guess what: it had a deadline short as hell (about 3 weeks) and involved quite a lot of hires flip sims. I’ve seen where max is going with VFX for years: and that’s nowhere. So I was getting into the software before I actually considered to switch. Your claims clearly give me a hint you have no idea what you’re taking about. Generating IFDs? And have heard about delayed load? I generate my IFDs quicker than I smoke a cigarrete, cause they usually consist of not much more than lights, camera and shaders. SDFs? You mean VDBs I guess. Bloody fast, stable with any kind of topology, and I almost never prebake them. No need to. Adding math nodes to feel smart…? With such statements you only prove yourself to be an ignorant as*h**e, mister. I can add these is TP, great. Single threaded, slow, junky and uncomfortable to use. What you call math nodes get actually compiled in Houdini to give you performance close to C++ without any headache or aditional work. Get over it. And educate a bit.
🙂
While I do agree Houdini is more complex to play with, I’ll also admit it’s a pretty cool, solid, very stable.
I started recently to play with and I kind of push it (for what I can do for now) and never got a crash. Max for me crashes on modeling simple stuff sometimes.
I guess my main problem with Autodesk is this whole rental-only paradigm they are reciting. Do I have high hopes for BiFrost? Hell yeah … Naiad was the best fluid solver. Do I want to rent it instead of owning a software? No. And here lies the major problem with the new version of tP as well.
Is tP pricey? Is … but I always thought of it as a MUST software, so I was prepared to cash out the money when I was ready to make commercial jobs with it.
Will I now? I don’t know. I do hope Autodesk review this new rental only strategy or we’ll see lots of people seeking refugee on other vendors.
Cinema 4D isn’t the best software in the world (there isn’t such a thing), but it improved a lot on the modeling side and now I don’t think there’s much I can’t do in there that I can on Max. Add to that Houdini Indie and it’s cheaper than Max + RealFlow and it’s more stable.
3ds Max is the software I like the most, hands down. And while the updates weren’t so great, I was okay with it still. But if the option of owning the software is deleted, than I won’t have any more reason to use it, in all honesty.