Autodesk M&E opens channel with 3DS Max users
Aug 23, 2013 by CGP Staff
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(Updated) An anonymous artist who attended yesterday’s NYC meeting has kindly reported his account of the event, which was attended by Autodesk’s Chris Young and Bill Ennis. Read it at the end of this post.
In light of the recent discussion thread prompted by the Autodesk SIGGRAPH event and Naiad news, Autodesk’s 3DS Max head of development Chris Young would like to open a communication channel with Max users and has requested us to post the following message. He will be reading your comments.
Hi Everyone
I just wanted to give you an update and follow up on my post to Tom Hudson from last week. Some of you have already reached out to me 1:1 with some very nice emails, suggestions and offers. Thank you so much for that. I would like to let you know what I’ve been in some great offline discussions with some folks from this forum. As I’m taking on this new role with the 3ds Max team, I figured I’d call up a few folks and have a more in depth discussion – something that one can never have by email or via discussion boards. What I wanted to do was listen, ask a few questions, confirm a few facts and also describe some changes we’ve made at Autodesk- something that I’m personally very excited about. I’m excited about getting directly involved with the future of 3ds Max and build upon all the things we’ve done over the past 6 months to prepare for this. I thought it would be useful to get this information out there – none of what I’m telling you here is confidential.
To start: The “who’s who” of Autodesk – I realize that you may have noticed some personnel changes over the past couple of years as the voices on your community board have changed. What I would like to do now is explain the new Autodesk “voices” that represent ALL Autodesk products, at the senior management level, for each of the industries we work with: Film/TV, Games and Design. Marc Stevens (ex-Softimage/Microsoft/Avid) is the head of products for Film/TV applications; Frank Delise (whom you all know 😉 is head of products for Games and I am the head of products for Design applications. We’ve all been around Autodesk for a long time – we know everyone here and we know all of the products, including 3ds Max, and any other tech or product we might want to bring into the Film/TV, Games or Design workflows. So that means ALL of our products are represented by very user-responsive people, whom I respect and work with closely, for each of the key areas where our products are used. We are listening to this board, as well as many other communities & sites out there. Many of the direct contacts you already have with the 3ds Max design and engineering teams are the same, with Kelcey Simpson being our main design contact and many of you already know our beta manager extraordinaire, senior QA & long-time 3ds Max guru: Mr. Kelly Michels. :-).
What’s new: We’ve also dramatically changed the way we design and build the application. The team heard folks loud and clearly about focusing more and finishing what we start. We’ve gone Agile all the way and spent the last release cycle focusing a lot on setting a new baseline for stability and performance in 3ds Max 2014. It’s my personal view that without core stability and performance you don’t have a great base to build on and it’s fundamental that we don’t lose sight of this going forward when we add new features or services in the future.
Postings: As you probably already know, we can’t post confidential information nor talk publicly about any future details regarding product lines – there are many reasons – and I don’t like to use the “legal reasons” blanket excuse. The reasons are not always simple, but real. I also personally believe that “what we do and how we act” is a more powerful statement. That being said, we can also only look forward and work towards new goals, and I’ve already offered to be the main contact behind the scenes for some community site managers for any fact checking that they may need to do for their boards. I’ll do my best to be sure you’re getting the most factual and current info that you can get!
Roadmaps & “so what’s next”: I know that this is a hot topic. We can’t have these discussions in open forums. However, we do have forums in which we do design reviews & tests of new features that we have in development. If you are not currently in the early access or Beta programs, I highly encourage you to apply. As a part of the Beta reward program, we do have a smaller early access/design review group of folks with whom we meet with regularly, with webcasts or even in-person visits where we can get into details which we could never discuss by email or in forums. If you’d like to know more about this, please contact me or Kelly Michels directly.
I’d like to thank Tom Hudson and others for taking the time to talk with me. I will be listening and responding through the actions we take in our design meetings & beta forums. In the meantime, I will also be reaching out to offer some support at the some regional 3ds Max user meetings and some of you now have my Skype addy and I’m sure we’ll be chatting on a regular basis.
Thanks,
Chris
Autodesk 3ds Max
In light of the recent discussion thread prompted by the Autodesk SIGGRAPH event and Naiad news, Autodesk’s 3DS Max head of development Chris Young would like to open a communication channel with Max users and has requested us to post the following message. He will be reading your comments.
Hi Everyone
I just wanted to give you an update and follow up on my post to Tom Hudson from last week. Some of you have already reached out to me 1:1 with some very nice emails, suggestions and offers. Thank you so much for that. I would like to let you know what I’ve been in some great offline discussions with some folks from this forum. As I’m taking on this new role with the 3ds Max team, I figured I’d call up a few folks and have a more in depth discussion – something that one can never have by email or via discussion boards. What I wanted to do was listen, ask a few questions, confirm a few facts and also describe some changes we’ve made at Autodesk- something that I’m personally very excited about. I’m excited about getting directly involved with the future of 3ds Max and build upon all the things we’ve done over the past 6 months to prepare for this. I thought it would be useful to get this information out there – none of what I’m telling you here is confidential.
To start: The “who’s who” of Autodesk – I realize that you may have noticed some personnel changes over the past couple of years as the voices on your community board have changed. What I would like to do now is explain the new Autodesk “voices” that represent ALL Autodesk products, at the senior management level, for each of the industries we work with: Film/TV, Games and Design. Marc Stevens (ex-Softimage/Microsoft/Avid) is the head of products for Film/TV applications; Frank Delise (whom you all know 😉 is head of products for Games and I am the head of products for Design applications. We’ve all been around Autodesk for a long time – we know everyone here and we know all of the products, including 3ds Max, and any other tech or product we might want to bring into the Film/TV, Games or Design workflows. So that means ALL of our products are represented by very user-responsive people, whom I respect and work with closely, for each of the key areas where our products are used. We are listening to this board, as well as many other communities & sites out there. Many of the direct contacts you already have with the 3ds Max design and engineering teams are the same, with Kelcey Simpson being our main design contact and many of you already know our beta manager extraordinaire, senior QA & long-time 3ds Max guru: Mr. Kelly Michels. :-).
What’s new: We’ve also dramatically changed the way we design and build the application. The team heard folks loud and clearly about focusing more and finishing what we start. We’ve gone Agile all the way and spent the last release cycle focusing a lot on setting a new baseline for stability and performance in 3ds Max 2014. It’s my personal view that without core stability and performance you don’t have a great base to build on and it’s fundamental that we don’t lose sight of this going forward when we add new features or services in the future.
Postings: As you probably already know, we can’t post confidential information nor talk publicly about any future details regarding product lines – there are many reasons – and I don’t like to use the “legal reasons” blanket excuse. The reasons are not always simple, but real. I also personally believe that “what we do and how we act” is a more powerful statement. That being said, we can also only look forward and work towards new goals, and I’ve already offered to be the main contact behind the scenes for some community site managers for any fact checking that they may need to do for their boards. I’ll do my best to be sure you’re getting the most factual and current info that you can get!
Roadmaps & “so what’s next”: I know that this is a hot topic. We can’t have these discussions in open forums. However, we do have forums in which we do design reviews & tests of new features that we have in development. If you are not currently in the early access or Beta programs, I highly encourage you to apply. As a part of the Beta reward program, we do have a smaller early access/design review group of folks with whom we meet with regularly, with webcasts or even in-person visits where we can get into details which we could never discuss by email or in forums. If you’d like to know more about this, please contact me or Kelly Michels directly.
I’d like to thank Tom Hudson and others for taking the time to talk with me. I will be listening and responding through the actions we take in our design meetings & beta forums. In the meantime, I will also be reaching out to offer some support at the some regional 3ds Max user meetings and some of you now have my Skype addy and I’m sure we’ll be chatting on a regular basis.
Thanks,
Chris
Autodesk 3ds Max
I appreciate this post and it feels genuine but… The last thing I want to be is negative and a “troll”, so nothing I am saying is meant personally. So with that said, what is the point that you wanted to get across other than “we are listening”? Isn’t that what we’ve heard for a long time now?
I feel it’s very disappointing that Autodesk can’t talk about their roadmaps. Without that we just have to take your word that things are going in the right direction. I just got a license of 2014, and while it’s not the first time I’m using this release I do agree that it’s very stable but the new features aren’t particularly useful (Populate could have been if it had been extended a bit to be useful in more scenarios).
Do you feel that 3ds max has been on the right track since 3ds max 8 or is that a question you can’t answer in fear of insulting past/present Autodesk employees? Are things going to change from what we’ve seen the last 5-6 years or do you personally believe it’s been going smoothly?
I’m sorry, I am going to apply to be on the beta program and hope that I’m accepted. At the moment though, I’m still just nervous about what the future of 3ds max holds and what impact it will have on me and my brethrens.
First and foremost: thanks for the reach-out and for trying to fix some of the communication desaster that’s become a typical part of anything Autodesk.
I read that you are lead of the “Design applications” department, and that’s exactly where the trouble for Max, it’s situation in the market and the frustration of large groups of users starts. 3ds Max is’nt a “Design application” per se. It is ( or once was) a so often mentioned “Swiss army knife” of 3d. It’s an application that has it’s userbase spread so diverse through all the thinkable and unthinkable areas, that all your efforts trying to squeeze it into specific markets means you are actively working AGAINST your your customer- and user base.
Eg. The neglect of improvements and new features on the animation front, which is going on for some years now already, will kill more of the Max userbase as you might expect. It forces out Max from pipelines where historically it had a strong standing and will continue to force it out of pipelines where it currently still can deliver due to some extraordinary plugins. Needless to say that those markets you want to target ( arch/viz/design space) increasingly have the same demands like the Film/FX space. So this targeting “Max for Design” will not work out.
Add on top of this “animation-blind-eyeing-because-we-are-a-design-application”, the absolutely devastating, performance-hogging chaos in UI tech implementations ( which mostly happen because of some other apps in the Autodesk “Design”-space get them too: Ribbon/App-frame/Jewel icon, Caddies.., all things Maya did’nt recieve) , and you have people running from Max in masses…
So please: stop telling Max users for what purpose or segment it has to use 3ds Max, increase your Max dev-teams headcount to match it’s installed and selling seats count and stop trying to keep essential new techniques ( dual quad quaternion skinning, open subdiv, ptex ) away from Max. And of course don’t ever give up the fight against untold silly upper management decisions ( like PF Toolbox for suite owners only )
Thanks,
Josef Wienerroither
( BTW: i’m on the Beta )
3dsmax user very disappointing, for 3d character animation feature film now unavailable for any company, because 3dsmax is incompleted tool compare with Maya. since the movie planet 51 was use 3dsamax, but right now ilion was change their pipeline using maya base.
3dsmax feature film was drop down and for architectural was increasing. hope thinking particle available in Maya soon that’s why we know clearly 3dsmax will die in film.
if talk about python, maya available many years ago, but 3dsmax just available in 3dsmax 2014 extension, and also bullet engine, this is the idea of autodesk to bring maya to feature film and kill 3dsmax feature film.
Thank you for reaching out, but to be frank this does not feel like a channel of communication, rather another in a series of oh so many many posts from various Autodesk officials throughout the years stating that (a) they are excited about the direction 3dsmax is going, and (b) they can not and will not tell us anything regarding our concerns or future of 3dsmax.
This is incredibly heartwarming and very nice of you Mr. Young, but:
“Design applications”, So ‘this’ is that ‘that kind of application’ thing, I really believe this new initiative of autodesk to limit this product’s capabilities is a big mistake, Max’s flexibility across the range of fields is(or maybe I should say was?) it’s major strength and attraction, and for some reason you are bent on changing that, sad, and a big mistake.
And “I also personally believe that “what we do and how we act” is a more powerful statement”, I completely agree with you, now if that was said in defense of how you’ve treated Max so far, then that kinda worries me, that said I will remain as hopeful as I can(considering the current ‘very disappointing’ events) until the next release, just to make sure of a few things.
Again, this was a very nice gesture, but then again, there already is a ‘User voice’ system out there with a very long list of Ideas, Requests and complains, have you seen them Mr. Young?… that could be a nice place to start listening to your customers, if you are really ‘serious’ about this whole thing.
As always a good words about future and big plans. All this years AD says they listened community and makes a super tools.
In fact, over the past six years 3d max didn’t changed in the right direction.
People go to an AD competitor. AD will lose millions of $, unless they change their policies
Well said Rotem.. I agree
And. Legal reasons are always a pain in software market. But I think some times it might be used to cover up or shield the features that are not implemented. I believe it’s hard to choose to focus on the right userbase for that release.. But every release some folks gets frustrated and others say ok.. I do thing that’s not healty.
But the industy is growing with a real fast pace and I guess we all know and are afraid that Max will suffer from it if it can’t keep up.
I (hopefully we) do appreciate things have been done up to date.
I’m not to judge but having a new baseline for stability and performance for the new release is really cool. As y Tobbe Said “The new features aren’t particularly useful” I agree with that.
As an example the studio I worked with had invested in GPU’s last year. Thinking that it’s the next big thing. But iray didn’t improved since then it improved in the core to some extent but sadly not in max.. I know It is Nvidia’s software I know that but the way ADSK presented iray in the early days looked like it was a feature to be improved.
Active shade is not interactive at its best. Change the camera FOV and it doesn’t update. No perspetive update. Things like that makes me feel sorry.
Other than that I love max. 🙂
Chris, thank you again being open to us..
I wishing all the best to the team.
Thanks for the opportunity.
Pixar offers RenderMan Studio which is compatible now to Maya, Houdini, Cinema 4D and others but not 3DS Max. I recently wrote Pixar and here’s part of the response:
“Thank you for your email. To connect from your modeling/animation software to RenderMan you need a bridge product that outputs RIB files. Pixar has developed a bridge product from Maya to RenderMan in RenderMan Studio, and in general using Maya as a gateway to RenderMan is the most common path. Other software applications such as Houdini, Nuke X, Cinema 4D and Massive provide their own bridge to the RIB file format for RenderMan Pro Server.
We do not currently support a direct bridge between 3ds Max and RenderMan. Unfortunately Autodesk has not developed a bridge either as their primary focus for 3dx Max remains in the design space. We have evaluated doing so at various times but in the area of cinematic rendering which is RenderMan’s focus we have unfortunately not found a great deal of demand.
That is not to say it is not possible. If you would like to use RenderMan with 3ds Max the alternatives are to use a format like FBX or Alembic to move your data from 3ds Max to Maya (or other tools) to leverage RenderMan, but I suspect that is not the direct path you are seeking.”
–Now we know Max is used in films (Star Trek, 2012, many others) but it seems like the real pause for Pixar is that “Max remains in the design space.” Where would they get that idea?
I know it is costly to develop two products for the same market. But based on Pixar’s comments and what I’ve read in earlier posts on this topic, it seems clearly that AD is not promoting (behind the scenes)3DS Max as a VFX software.
From my communications, Pixar seemed like they would like to serve the more than 1 million Max users, but the true holdup seems to be the future of Max as a cinematic tool. And that concern seems to come from AD describing Max as a tool in the “design space.”
Chris, my question is: How long will AD continue to tell Max users one thing while telling potential huge development partners something else?
To follow up on Josephs post Max like Jay-Z has 99 problems and Marketing/product focus IS one. The perception is in the field “Max is now a (DESIGN aka cad) program with a entertainment back end”, or “Autocad’s foray into good looking renders”. This has entertainment guys flipping out, we all know this I think? Why you may ask? Let me first offer a change in marketing strategy for Max and then tell you why so you can see. The perception of Max (my belief) is Max should be and somewhat is Autodesk’s solution to the question what package makes things look and act “real” easily, for any industry. This slight shift is making Max a Photoshop (ubiquitous starting point to finishing tool) , vs. making Max a CAD package that has “toys” for if CAD folks want to use some entertainment tools. It’s not a question of what tools go with what industry but rather that Max users are best served by all users being able to use the most of the program. PLEASE at Autodesk do not design a program/platform to fill a niche but rather to design a tool set to get work done for all of your users. We users are feeling like we are becoming molded into a square shape at the moment and most of us can see a not to distant scary round hole, real or imagined.
Users/customers, strange to figure, don’t feel that they have a “pulse” or clue of what Max is at this stage. Max is in process of being re-imagined and has been for soooooo many long years that Autodesks customers are questioning what Max is. This only gets worse by Autodesk using CAD design buzz words to describe the package ro make sales in one industry over another (seriously this is like bamboo slivers to the fingernails to all non design guys) This causes a spiral or maybe a cascade, ok, more like an avalanche of worry that translates into why I am I trying to make money off using this package to do what it is I feel no longer designed for? How can you expect to sell a product that does not push and constantly tell their customers “I am a (insert blank here)?” By brand? well as you can guess the brand is fading fast and is not enough to support putting a blank white box in front of the customer for any company to say “you want this!” The customer will ask you “what is it?” and you can only reply “it’s 3dsMax…” and the more important question that we users don’t know is “what does it do?” We don’t need mission statement to cover this we need proof, proof that comes from what is developed alone.
Why is this such a big deal? Perception is a really big deal in all industries. If as a Max user, anyone in the chain of a job in any industry perceives us (Max users) to NOT be using the right tool or not having the right skill set, or tool set alone we lose work we lose jobs. No one walks into the office of a “perceived” dentist and says “I will have the lobster bisque…well can you try if I pay you?” If a client is ever told “we cannot do that easily” on the user end we lose end of story.
I for one think that Max’s integration with the CAD side is awesome, don’t get me wrong. If someone comes to me with “I to show this amazing new product” from a broadcast side of things it’s great that I can open a product designers files and talk directly to him/her on function. At the end of the day however I am doing animation. I need animation tools, I need them more than links to Revit projects, it’s nice to get in this stuff but not “necessary” as it call all be recreated in Max. Lack of animation tools cannot be recreated, only painstakingly scripted for, and not all of us have that luxury. That is why for anyone fundamentally buys Max this issue of development highlights another problem.
Max has always been killer with plug ins. Want the best render? Go third party. Want the best Particle tools? Go third party. Want the best…go third party. Why as a customer am I paying for Max again then? What does Max DO again then? What does Max do for me again that I cannot get better served elsewhere for? “Well it used to do animation tools, but then it just got a lot of plug ins for importing other Autodesk programs”, is what I am feeling/hearing. This brings me back (finally sorry for the length) to my marketing and more importantly REAL directional push.
Max is a wonderful generalists tool, that needs to be, wants to be the Photoshop of the 3d industry again, if it is to thrive in my perception. It’s tool set however is causing my skill set to look elsewhere, but why? I am an animator albeit a generalist (pipeline in a guy)one, I need ANIMATION tools I can literally make or fake the rest. I need animation tools that are fully flushed out, I need new animation tools, where the tools that we have are better to be re invented then I need that to happen too.
I am a Max “guy”, I am behind you at Autodesk still, but I can only work with what’s been given me and while I applaud the work in stability and user experience I know dev’s hate when I say this but “that shouldn’t have had to been things to work on in the first place!” I cannot give a client a :30 sec. commercial with 5 dropped frames. 5 out of 900 is pretty good right, no it’s everything. I know Stability and user experience was something you all had to worry about and fix, but not at the expense of the development of the product. This last cycle on Max was the best of times the worst of times, but left me and a lot of other users feeling like I am treading water waiting for drowning or a boat, albeit with a second wind.
No more plug ins as part of the program patches, no more interop, no more mission statements please until we have animation tools that can stand in the industry by themselves, and have users say “we should use Max for that” in any industry segment and not get strange looks. One last point the real strength of Max has never been with Autodesk, it’s strength is it’s users. Look at all the development that has been done on Max. The amount of user development is astounding all random here…Bobo, Lazlo, Hot chip, Tom Hudson, Chris Bond, Joe Gun. Pen and thousands of others have all done an order of magnitude more development for Max than even it’s own development team (that has worked really hard to by the way) this is important to realize. I hope that Autodesk realizes this and applies it to it’s future development. Again sorry for the length 🙁 I will try not to sound so ranty in the future.
Thanks,
Carl Braun
(Doesn’t know if he can say he is in the Beta or not and not get killed)
Is it just me or does anyone remember Combustion 4?
Admittedly a far far smaller user base but all the signals were the same. Can’t say anything due to PLC rules but really excited about the future developments of yada yada…
One of many threads at the time: http://www.fxguide.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5373.html
Now I don’t mean to personally criticise you Chris, But as the voice of AD for all things Max nothing you’ve said sounds any different.
@Roger Barnes:
Thank you so much for posting that!… That put’s me a bit more at ease with Pixar, and even more disappointed at Autodesk(And I thought I couldn’t get more disappointed at this company); They are really going through with this “Design Application” thing, this is Unacceptable, I know that Max is being used in the design space, and effectively too, but limiting and constraining it like this, just Unacceptable.
3dsmax is a generalist 3d app like that of lightwave, modo and cinema4d it’s NOT…repeat NOT a fluffing CAD/DESIGN app…if you continue to put it into that box you may as well lower it into the ground and throw some flowers on the lid before you lay 3ds max to rest forever.
3dsmax needs to be developed for all areas of media and entertainment not just interior spaces and exterior landscapes for architecture clients.
Games, TV, Film, medical, print, web, cartoon etc.
Sorry Chris but weren’t you Autodesk product manager for Combustion and Toxic, posting similar comments about the fantastic future of combustion, none of which you could discuss for legal reasons?
Sure enough a version later and they announced Combustion EOL.
Bit of a coincidence or did you really not see that one coming internally?
I’d love your genuine perspective on how the termination of Combustion is so different to the way Max is being sidelined and why I should believe your reassurances this time?
“and I am the head of products for Design applications”…
This sounds bad, really bad. This is my first post here, but I´ve been using 3ds max for more than 10 years, I´ve beta tested it from version 8 to 9 and was part of the old advisory board. Before my company was bought by Ubisoft, we produced games for Xbox/360, PC, DS, etc,… and in the last two years, I moved to the advertising industry, founded a small studio and here I am: STILL using 3ds max.
Well, this is the first time I´m almost sure 3ds max is dying for good. And, In my opinion, limiting it for “design” use is a HUGE mistake and AD is going to loose a lot of customers. I may have to switch to Maya finally, but I´ll try to hold as much as I can with 3ds max waiting for a better alternative.
Just a shame, because there are amazing things you can do with 3ds max fast and easily, that will be such a pain with Maya.
My (small) hope now would be if Blender switched it´s whole license system, giving plugin devs the opportunity to produce commercial products for it. I´ve heard they are going to improve a lot of things in version 3. With a few nice plugins, who knows…
Chris,
I guess this two articles can help pointing to the right direction. And they are recent …
http://www.cgchannel.com/2013/08/the-lone-ranger-the-best-vfx-you-never-noticed/
http://www.cgmeetup.net/home/making-of-star-trek-into-darkness-by-pixomondo/
Two top studios (ILM and PIXOMONDO) doing INCREDIBLE work on 3dsMax for film. That helps proving the point that 3dsMax is a tool for ALL areas and not only design. As much as I understand the push of Maya to the Film/VFX, I think maybe you could let the apps be perfect for all markets. Even more with AD plans of suites. There’s no reason to focus a great app in only one market.
But thanks for taking the time to talk to the user base. Hope you can help Max get back on track.
Best.
I don’t know who is coordinating autodesk’s responses but I get mixed signals here. During the last 3ds usermeeting people asked if max would get several wanted additions like alembic/ptex/opensubdiv etc and we get told “It’s not that kind of application” but yet AD is happy to show of that Pixomondo used 3ds max for the last Star Trek movie and more. Don’t get me wrong it’s great that max is being able to support those skilled people with the features currently inside the app but that doesn’t mean new technologies should be discarded.
And sorry Chris this is no personal attack or anything but being told everything is all right and we are listening when customer are getting vocal is getting old especially when it has been said multiple times before.
Chris, thanks, and has many others have posted…but.
What I heard in this is that Max is again, for Design and not for anything else.
I have been on beta/alpha/advisory board since Max 3/4, I have been asking for and pushing for features that the industry needs, and not just in my area of the industry. I have not been contacted about behind the scenes discussions on the future of Max. I can only assume this is because what I do with Max is not the future of Max.
NO NEW FEATURES FOR 2015. Just fix all the little problems. Then balance core improvements with new features.
This boggle me; Scriptspot is a free R&D department and beta test bed for max. There’s been both simple and complex scripts on SS for years that ether correct, supplement or innovate the way max is used. Yet rarely do they show up in max.
All I can say is actions speak louder than words. At least, thanks for stepping out into the firing line.
As for all this Max is for CAD/Design stuff, please. For what was Max originally written? AFAIK movies. Why do Archviz folks want realistic renders? They see it done in movies. Why do Archiviz folks want realistic water in their renders? They see it done in movies. Why do archviz folks want populated streets with crowds? They see it done in movies!
Who makes a lot of the stuff in movies? Really do I need to say the answer? If not a soul saw this stuff in entertainment and the media they would know none the better in every other field, really. M&E is exposure to the masses of what can be done with CG. Nearly everyone watches TV, Film, Youtube. We are a visual society.
The Design side all wants to make great looking stuff, that has trickled down from the people that push the limits in entertainment.
Is this not obvious?
Why do you think we started out by drawing on walls of caves? It wasn’t to build a building it was to tell a story.
Thanks for opening a discussion with the Max community, Chris. I would only be repeating what others here have already said, so I will just say I agree with Josef, Paul and Carl’s statements.
I hope communication does get better, but like other have said, activity is what we are judging on.
It’s sad because all the changes and suggestions that the community has for max, whether they are actually considered or not, will takes years to implement. As much as I hope that Tom’s ideas and improvements get implemented we will not seem them for at least 2 years from now.
As an example, it took a team of only 1 at Blur to develop and implement Python inside of 3ds Max, where AD who has a team of people took several years to develop and on partially implement. It’s another half attempted feature.
Even look at Zbrush, they implement new ideas and features in a matter of months and push it out immediately with updates so users get it within the same year. Where max only releases worthy updates once a year…if that. The rest of the time it’s just bug fixes, never feature implementations.
In all the years I have been following this board, I have yet to see a post from one single person in the Archviz/ Design world. (Correct me if I’m wrong here.) This tells me that the people who care about Max and probably the majority of the people who use Max are not using it for Archviz/Design.
Why alienate what could be your core audience?
I know that the Arch/Design community loves Max- who doesn’t? Max has to be the most intuitive 3D program on the market. Innovations like Biped and CAT were revolutionary to the 3D industry. Both developed first by third party developers- as was Particle Flow and many other Max innovations.
So please AD, don’t tell third party developers that Max is “design software” and turn them off. They may do the work and come up with some things you are not even thinking of and those things may be extremely useful to the Max VFX community.
I’m really not complaining about animation tools in Max because I also use Motionbuilder and that has everything- Good move with the seamless integration. However, there are too many plugin developers who are starting to see max as not viable- taking the lead from AD (Bifrost/Naiad for example). Perception becomes reality. AD is selling this great product short.
I’m positive.
I think that too much people in adsk understanding our problem.
Only a little bit time… please community….. just wait.
Yep, sorry – heard all this before. I’ll believe it when I see it.
My feeling is that Autodesk are happy when some film stuff gets shown because it makes the design side feel a bit more ‘Hollywood’, but it’s not a priority.
Looking at what studios use, it seems to be more Thinking Particles/Krakatoa/Frost/FumeFX/VRay that are the important bits – Max is just a convenient coathanger.
The thing is, as these are ported over – what’s the incentive to stick with Max?
Out of the above it’s only TP that’s Max only.
I have been a lover of 3d for 20 years now. i started with POVray. my career for the last 13 years has been in arch vis. think im happy about the focus on design ? NO!!!!!! i didnt get into 3d to render buildings. i didnt dedicate 15 years to learning the vastness that is 3DS so i could make a nice visualisation of a cad model. i got into 3d to create worlds without limits.
at the moment its architecture that pays the bills, but im over the moon when i get other stuff -music vids vfx etc.. and id leave arch vis behind in an instant.. its a dying industry anyway.. and even if i was passionate about it, the high end is rushing towards the vfx industry at high speed. already we have clients who want “avatar”
what am i supposed to do? im being told that in future my work (and more importantly PLAY, will be limited to the increasingly competitive arch vis field and must learn maya to keep up with the cgi top end?
remember when maya and max were competitors?! dream days.
its no wonder the max userbase (proud generalists for the most part) are angry.. learning a new dcc application to the same level is a VAST and costly undertaking, and one that is necessary if you kill off development of max as an all purpose solution.
im sure you have run the numbers are know that slowly pushing this through will give you a sufficient number of converts to maya to not worry about those who fall through the cracks to non AD products.
i just dont understand how it came about that AD owned the big three in the first place. it has reduced innovation, stifled competitiveness, and devastated the cgi industry. Surely its illegal to build and abuse a monopoly like this? obviously not in this case.
i cannot speak for others but i already cancelled my subscription, and will continue with what i have (2012) whilst training up on anything non AD that will carry me to the future.. i wont get burned twice. (sorry 3 times.. i was a combustion user too.)
Hi Chris, thanks for posting. Overall I think that there is A LOT riding on this next release of 3DS Max to show its chops once again after numerous years of fixing the foundation via the XBR initiative and stability fixes. While overall I have been pretty approving of this because it certainly was needed (and it did give us some useful new tools and features), I think its time for the main focus to be on some real game changing features, productivity enhancements and updates come to 3DS Max to ensure that it remains as a strong and viable app for any industry to consider using.
Some of the more critical areas that need improvement ASAP would revolve around animation, skin modifier, dual quaternions, animated character performance, vertex weighing and so forth (guys like Paul Neal or Paul Hormis could go in depth on this). Modeling in 3DS Max is pretty good but there are always areas of improvement with new features and methods that are useful or even more enhancements in polygon reduction and optimization. A proper referencing system is a must. UV mapping is strong in Max but we need to see bug fixes in the UnWrap UVW modifier as well as features like UDID and PTEX support. Alembic support is also pretty high on the list too (sorry but FBX is yesterday’s news).
With all that said though the most important thing that is worth saying here though is that really the goal needs to be kept in mind that all of us as end users strive to do high end work that meets our requirements that we are targeting. We want the best features and options so we can do the best work possible regardless if we are doing Film/TV, a game or making ArchVis work.
I know that this is a tall order to ask for, but since you asked I thought it would be worthwhile to list.
thinking particles is available for cinema4d although i’m not sure how up to date the cinema version is.
just sayin!
and i’ll keep saying if your dumping 3ds max give us users a migration option to Maya for next year.
>”Out of the above it’s only TP that’s Max only.”<
Not entirely true, you can get TP in C4d! Granted, I think it is only 1.0 but still 😀
Not sure much I post here will be new so much as reinforcement of things already posted here.
First off, I’m a user since 3dStudio R3, and came into it purely for Film / TV. Maybe I’m a bit grumpier than most because I am also a purchaser of Animator Pro, Lightscape, and Combustion….and of course I’m sure that all three of those products are going to get all kinds of attention in the near future – it’s going to be great! – – it’s just that Autodesk can’t talk about anything. In truth, AnimPro and LS never had such promises, but Combustion was constantly built up the way that Max is now…and likely to the same end.
I’ve mentioned this in many forums, but Autodesk insists on not answering – – it is 100% clear to everyone (including Pixar) that Autodesk has given up on Max for film purposes…so why don’t they at least consider allowing all Max users a one-time, no charge switch to Maya? Let me just directly transfer my subscription to the product you actually care about for film?
I don’t look forward to learning a THIRD major app (we’ve already moved much of our work to a competitor when it became clear Autodesk didn’t care about Max for film), but it would at least keep me in the family.
I am going to apply for the beta. My subscription ends in January, so for the past few years I’ve been forced to renew only to find out that once again nothing was being done for film/tv. If Autodesk lets me into the beta I can at least make an informed decision about renewal – if good things show up in the beta I renew. If they decide I can’t be in the beta then that makes my decision for me — I can’t keep paying hundreds of dollars each year because Frank Delise or now Chris tells me all kinds of sweet stuff is coming for film. I can’t keep flying blind when it is absolutely OBVIOUS that Max is now an arch viz tool.
Chris, I feel for you because you are kind of doomed. You work for a company that clearly isn’t going to do diddly for film/TV in Max, and you are forced to repeat the same company line that Frank did (note: after his talk about how the previews were only a hint of all the great things coming in the last version that he (of course) couldn’t talk about, I no longer put ANY faith in anything that guy says – – he could tell me the sky was blue and I’d have to check).
I still would love some info that we’ll never get, which is some kind of indication of how much our MAX subscription money has gone to develop new film things in Maya.
Not to flood the board, but something just started bugging me:
“Autodesk is 100% committed to Max in Film and Television production, and will devote substantial resources toward features and power for Max 2015 that will benefit these consumers”
Two things about that sentence:
1) It is NOT forward looking. It does not commit to features nor in any way does it violate rules about forward looking statements, any more than McDonalds declaring “We are 100% committed to adding healthier items to our menu”
2) I do not recall hearing ANYTHING like that from Autodesk.
So not only are they not making feature claims they cannot legally make, but they aren’t even displaying a mission statement or confirming that development resources are committed to features aimed at film.
I feel like I’m in the minority of the minority. I use Max for FX work for Film/TV. I recognize some of the names here that are in a similar situation as me.
One thing I find interesting in my area is that I don’t know know many FX artists that prefer Maya for FX work – those people are all going to Houdini. Just something to keep in mind I suppose.
I’m a younger user, but Im just sick of arbitrary features that no one will ever touch while bugs and problems stay the same release after release. Stylized Nitrous viewport anyone?
Also, can someone throw Oleg some $ so we can just get multithreaded support in Pflow? It’s 2013! 🙂
I think the general consensus is:
-Fix everything.
-Follow through with implementations, not just add a feature and abandon it. Repeat.
-Actually do the above.
DumpyPong opens channel with Autodesk M&E
I Just don’t understand your complete refusal to show any “potential” features despite being cornered into releasing unprecedented fluffy marketing statements.
Adobe and many other large software companies seem to be able to LEGALLY show their user base feature developments that are taking place.
Why is this so difficult for you? How can we take it any other way than as confirmation that there is no real long term future?
“what we do and how we act” Now’s the time.
Can’t help to agree with everyone – quit forcing and developing max as a DESIGN only application! It’s an amazing all-in-one software that allows for very rapid and high quality content creation.
Generally, this is what I’d like to see:
– fix the age old bugs, make all the core functionality work flawlessly (especially animation – fix Track view, Xref/containers!). Keyword “swiss-knife”.
– Please make sure that it is open and FLEXIBLE to help meet any demanding scenarios. Integrate standards such as ALEMBIC that would allow for better integration with other 3d applications (Maya(naiad?),XSI,Houdini).
– Throw in some nice new features with release that would justify people paying their subscription. Bug fixes or one updates addressing just one target group are not enough!
Other than software features, once again the major problem is how AD communicates this software, presenting it as DESIGN solution(not entertainment). Users may love max for all it is, however if one cannot find a job with it, then it is all down hill from there on. All of this starts with students, education, the IMAGO of software. AD promotes maya very heavily(including in schools). Truthfully I hear more promotion from MODO and Lightwave camp(movies,fx,games) than I do about max. As a studio, it is increasingly harder to find a good max artist versus many skilled maya specialists (forcing a pipeline change). All of this is a DOMINO effect that needs to be addressed at its core.
Pixomondo Star Trek interview – man said “Some people say that 3ds max not for animation but i’m not find this true. We used BONES PRO plugin…”
3ds max = .NET framework.
There is no hope for max with such statments “i cant tell you more about but we have…bla bla bla”.
We play this game since 2010.
What is the problem when a company didnt talk about planned features with the communitiy?. We all had so many ideas what could be usefull and what could be improved. Ha! wait…this was the uservoice program.
Max is a nice tool for me, but i watch what the foundry will do with modo the next years.
Btw. if max wants to be a good archi tool then we need some nice realtime boolean tools…
Hi Chris,
thank you for showing up and for being willing to communicate, it’s nice when you can actually talk about the problems with someone and not feel like everything is just another post on the internet nobody will ever read. So I am optimistic that something fruitful will come out of this, for both our and your stake because I feel that this could be your last chance to steer max in the right direction.
That being said, I can’t help but feel like I’m being patronized, again. I remember all those XBR webinars with all those nifty bells, whistles and promises. Sadly, we are still waiting for the majority of them. There is a ton of stuff you need to fix. I am realistic and don’t expect a totally new app in the next release but a looooong step in a right direction is a good start.
As for the listening part, I think someone already mentioned the 3dsmaxfeedback site. I mean, isn’t that site the sole purpose for user base feedback and listening? We pretty much said everything we wanted there, and we did that quite some time ago. Some of the highest rated request have been there for the past 2-3 years and still we don’t have them, not even as a promise.
It’s OK if you plan to develop max as a “design” app, it really is, at the and it is your app. You will lose users in the process, but be upfront about it so we can all move along. It easier not to expect anything then to hope and not get it, at least for me. But keep in mind that even as a “design” app max is still very much broken.
this is a very negative thread and must be disheartening to read if you work for autodesk or if you are considering buying 3dsmax as your tool of choice, however as others have pointed out it’s a reflection of what has not been delivered since 3dsmax 2008 onwards from Autodesk that has brought us to this position.
They have delivered new things in later versions for sure but their current stance of “no suitable” for ptex, fluids, an interactive previewer like lightwave or modo or many new tools that seen to get put into maya and not 3dsmax (which was autodesks flagship 3d app) and still has THE largest user base really boggles the mind…what are they hoping for?
Is it autodesk goal to annoy us so much we’ll honestly stop using 3dsmax and go and buy maya?
Many here if they had the option will get out of autodesk altogether, as i said before i’ve already got Modo as a plan B and lightwave as a backup plan to that…note BOTH are NOT autodesk products.
I would consider Maya only if it were a ZERO transaction fee to move my subscription to it if autodesk truly hate 3dsmax so much they want to actively bury it in a “design” pit. I saw this destination when they dumped VIZ and created design for no apparent reason out of thin air.
In essence autodesk are creating an UBER app by not developing 3dsmax and not developing softimage, all roads lead to maya it seem…okay fine.. give me Maya then.
I’m very curious about what Chris has to say about all these replies. I hope it’s a direct answer without too much hot air, as everyone says it’s worrying to see 3dsmax going down as Combustion did.
I think motion graphics for broadcast also deserves the attention, it uses a lot of the goodies from film and vfx, and it’s sad to see other applications suchs as Cinema4D moving so much forward (like with Cineware or their sculpting tools) and Autodesk saying 3dsmax it’s not the application for that. Makes you really think about investing in 3dsmax for future licensces.
As a new studio which software would you buy?, as a teacher which software would you teach? If you see 3dsmax is not going the direction almost everyone here wants it to go (which I guess it’s a good representation of the users who work for entretainment), why keep on choosing it?As Nikola said, some plain honesty would be very welcome.
how would developing and enhancement max for filmوTV,game and motion graphic without appropriate upgrade on animation tools,ptex,alembic,fluid,fire and smoke,dynamic and etc ?!
swiss-knife ….!!
“Sorry Chris but weren’t you Autodesk product manager for Combustion and Toxic”
No, that was Chris Vienneau.
This one is Chris Young.
So Chris spoke for a few minutes @ the intro of the NYC Max Usergroup last night (8/20) and then spoke with others afterwards. He stated he as well as Autodesk in general, were very aware of what’s being said in the forums and wanted to dispose of the rumors:
– Max is one of the most widely used 3d apps and brings in a bunch of money so it’s not going anywhere, no EOL.
– Him flying in on short notice as well as Bill Ennis, the Tech Specialist Manager, being there was to help start a dialogue with the artists that’s been lacking recently.
– Still can’t speak much about what’s coming down the pipeline with one reason being a publicly traded company.
– Max developers have been down or depressed from all the negative feedback they’ve been getting for their work and have admittedly pulled back a bit from interacting with artists because of this. They’re going to try and reverse this, again hoping to start it all with this meeting.
– They repeatedly said throughout the night the best way to give feedback and get insights to next versions is to get on the beta.
(if i have wrong info, someone please clarify that was there last night as my memory is already fading on me. It was recorded, but I think you have to be a nyc usergroup member to view when it’s posted.)
Surprisingly not many questions were posed to Chris when he opened it up to the room before Lon Grohs, of Chaos Group, did his presentation. One individual did ask about alembic for max since all other major 3d apps have it, and he said it’s something they plan on revisiting as it didn’t make this recent round. This didn’t come across as a definite integration to some of us, or could just be they’re considering now after the backlash? Not sure …
Then the audience member stated he had a bunch of other questions, but instead of speaking had a few page list comprised of problems and issues as well as suggestions and ideas contributed from people in the industry – games/film/tv to the laughter and claps of the audience. Chris and Bill appeared to be genuinely happy to receive that list. Maybe something good can come from this? Who knows, here’s hoping in limited good faith …
I asked about the list afterwards and it contained the much talked about requests (alembic, bifrost/naiad, opensubd, etc) as well as animation requests from a particular game studio and other things.
In the end, actions speak louder than words so hopefully they heed the artists’ voices since they’re the ones that actually create. Oh yes, and VRay 3.0 is looking awesome after seeing it used …
As someone mentioned above and eastcoast3d confirmed it.
This is a pretty negative thread and I’m not surprised the developers are a bit down because of us.
I just wanted to say that max 2014 is the best and fastest version to date. The developers did a great job with what was on their list. There are a lot of under the hood updates that a lot of us don’t see because we are looking for big bright shiny gems like naiad/bitfrost. Honestly I am pretty excited for what the future holds for 3dsmax and seeing how they’ve come around to clean up such an old program only paves the way for a brighter future.
Cheers,
N
I am getting more and more annoyed by the publicly-traded excuse…NOT because it isn’t valid, but because it only applies to statements that could reasonably constitute either promises or a few other very specific categories, which do NOT include mission statements or corporate philosophies relating to product.
It does NOT prevent them from stating that Max development will be focused X% on film, or that Autodesk is committed to making Max a premiere tool for film. They have deliberately chosen to say “We can’t talk about new features”, and then hope that no one calls on them to speak about philosophy, and that everyone assumes they can legally say nothing at all (untrue)
So honestly, when Chris says that “Max sells a lot and it isn’t going to be killed off”, that means absolutely NOTHING.
Devoting nearly zero resources to Max, and absolutely zero toward film/vfx features, or even making Max 100% Viz oriented, are all things that they could do that are absolutely in line with his statement.
They could turn Max into a spreadsheet program and that would still be consistent with not ‘killing off’ Max.
Practically speaking, they could kill off Max for huge segments of their user base and still abide by that statement. And indeed this is what they have done so far. Max is alive for viz, but essentially dead (or clinging to life) for other purposes.
The developers are sad? (grabs violin)
Unfortunate, but I don’t feel the slightest bit of guilt about that, and if they want to lash out I would suggest that they not direct their ill will toward these horrible ungrateful consumers who have been paying their salaries, but instead direct it toward Bass and those people who seemingly take 90 cents of every dollar I spend on my Max subscription and divert it to buying tech they will bundle into Maya. I have 100% confidence that the bulk of our money is going toward Maya.
I have some empathy for them, but it sounds almost like we’re supposed to follow every complaint with “But Max is FABULOUS!” so that feelings aren’t hurt – – well it isn’t fabulous anymore – not for what I need it to do. It’s been surpassed by competition, both external and internal. As a 20+ year user, I WANT it to be fabulous again.
Maybe the developers are great, and have just been hamstrung….so if you are a great programmer and you hate working for a company that doesn’t care about your product, then quit Autodesk…then let me know what company you moved to. Maybe they deserve my business.
I think it has been pointed out numerous times before that most people don’t consider the dev team at fault here, I personally have a problem with the ‘Decision Makers’, not the development team, I have a problem with the person that has looked across a table and has said so what that people want Naiad in Max, we don’t do this for people, our own agenda comes first for us, not the needs of hundreds of thousands of people.
Those are the people that I have a serious problem with, and frankly so should you.
I’m sure If I ever meet one of the developers in a bar I’ll buy him/her a drink before anything, so no, most people don’t have a problem with the dev team, even suggesting that is a bit odd to me.
again seam old story
“” We need to communicate with the users
AD will be ready to hear from you
I can’t promise any thing about the future but we will do a good stuff
I can’t till about the up coming plane due to our policy but we will booom “”
and by the new release
“” the fixes was so big step
and finally we got egg shape “”
when AD will understand that all we need is true development and advanced work not a good relations officer ??
The developers do care and bust their butts on Max. I know for a fact that they will go beyond what they are tasked in order to try and make things better for us. I don’t know all of them, but the ones I have had communications with are all good blokes.
If it’s true that Max is the bread winner, and has to cover more segments than the other app, it makes sense to have enough resources to be able to take care of all the different customers… and customers are always right!
I was also at the NYC 3ds Max UG last night. Chris Young did say that they won’t break out actual sales numbers for obvious reasons. It does point to some issues with the use of the product, though. Since 3ds max is included in many suites with Autocad, Revit, Inventor, etc., there’s no way to know if we are in any way justified in our claims that the product is being ignored. They collect usage information, so they know when a suite containing 3ds max is unused, or whatever, but they don’t share that information publicly. M&E-based sales figures for 3ds max may be very low compared to Maya. Basically, they might be making the correct business decisions even though it makes no sense to us.
So what we have is a product that is overseen by someone who is responsible to the Design industry (as opposed to Film or Games) and is primarily sold as an add-on to Autocad, Inventor, et al. This doesn’t bode well, but Chris seemed well aware of how bad things were and how things needed to be changed. Unfortunately, money is tight for M&E, etc.. It almost seemed like Chris would have to work against himself to get things to change. Maybe we need to put pressure on Marc and Frank to engage 3ds max more from their respective market segments so that this isn’t a case of Chris having to try to push for more film and games production tools in his package while supposedly shepherding the design market segment.
I didn’t hear anything really groundbreaking, and a lot of questions weren’t answered either, though they were “addressed”. I’m not saying that was Chris’ or Bill’s fault, they’re in a difficult position. I’m just saying that not a lot of encouraging stuff was said other than “we’re listening” and oddly enough that seemed like an improvement. Unfortunately, based on a lot of the comments I’ve read on these threads, I don’t know what they should be listening to.
One thing to note – Don’t you have to opt-in to share usage information with Autodesk? For the past several Max iterations I admit i’ve skipped past that all the time until finally participating in 2014. Several studios I’ve worked at, the IT guys skip past it when they installed Max on the machines. So as helpful as the usage information may be, I can’t really rely on its accuracy based on this small sample (despite knowing others that didn’t opt-in). If they are solely relying on this I think those samples would be a bit skewed.
IMO, what Autodesk should NOT be listening to is all this doom-and-gloom attitude up above (you’re not helping people). If they’re FINALLY listening (which they should have been doing all along), now is the time for those with real substantial ideas and suggestions. Chris Young gave out his contact info in the Siggraph/Naiad thread. He says he’s actually spoken to some of you. Jennifer Goldfinch gave out her info in the CGTalk thread and, yes, she does read them and responds back – at least i received a couple responses back.
I agree with Nickolay that the developers are doing what they under the constraints they’ve been put under. 2014 is definitely an improvement for speed and stability. The new customizable menu/ui configuration is a nice addition that not many people are aware of, but it’s been something needed for a while now. However, neglecting the popular Alembic and OpenSubD doesn’t make sense because the cost to implement isn’t much as others have made good scripts/plugins very quickly. If they want me to get in the beta, fine, but then actually accept me. In turn, they also need to reach out to consumers and the bigger studios that use it as their main package for their needs.
This points to me agreeing with DAngel that it’s NOT the developers, but the ones playing Puppet Master telling them what to put in instead of listening to the consumers (which they say they are now). So instead of grabbing a violin for the developers, play it for yourself. The developers aren’t the ones to blame.
Since ADSK is listening and the hope is they want to make the customers happy, contact them with constructive suggestions/comments and not just your hate email (that’s not going to help), if you want to be taken seriously. True they didn’t listen much in the past, but it sounds like things could be different now. The anger got them to finally listen, but now isn’t the time to lose our cool. Be a professional, I assume you wouldn’t want an angry person yelling at you all the time. I admit i’m not completely sold on all this, but I’ve seen them already taken a few small steps forward hearing from other industry folks.
The challenge ahead is regaining trust with a growing segment of your customers. The irony is that even as 3ds Max is now probably more stable than ever, and the direct support from developers when you post a bug report through the bug form and even the forums is becoming impressive, Max has over it the looming shadow of various business decisions that simply alienate customers. You’re a big company that makes awesome creative tools and productivity software–but despite all the genius that has gone into many of your products, the genius is matched 1:1 with business decisions that foster so much mistrust and infuriated customers that it is almost plagiarized from a Greek tragedy.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see through a lot of the mechanics. AD is trying to increase profits by reshuffling our perspective on what various software packages do; AD is trying to make users want packages of duplicate software in attempt to fabricate a value out of redundancy. It’s like the company really thinks it can get all of us to want to use a bunch of the same things. Imagine that Microsoft acquired OpenOffice and tried to make the MS Office users buy the Super Office Suite where you can type your documents in both MS Word and OpenOffice Word. Before long there will be “Word for Writing” and “Word for Blogging”. It sure sounds great from the marketing side–especially if the marketers and managers really had no clue about how completely insulting that is for customers.
I’m pretty sure that every single Max user in the world wants to see Autodesk come through with the claims about listening. But it’s really hard to trust the motives of a company that, as pointed out repeatedly, introduces broken features that often never get fixed, spend a lot of time promoting products that we see as internal competition for Max, and not adding into Max the features that are generally most requested. (Note, I am not saying Max hasn’t improved; but you’re unlikely find any paying customer who considers increased stability an actual feature.)
Although your company has some set of goals that include some path for Max (and Maya, etc)… you cannot really expect the very large collection of users (your customers) to accept on good faith that you have the best interest of your Max customers in mind. You bought two of its direct competitors and have kept them alive for years. Of course we are very wary about that. You keep saying you can’t tell us what you are going to do… so what is left is that we have to judge based on what you have done and what you are doing…
If you want to cultivate a better relationship with your Max customers, stop treating us like mindless AI from a game. Listen to us and stop using crappy and often pointless marketing talk. Instead of spending so much time trying to retrain our views on how we should want things that we just don’t want, spend all your time developing awesome things. That’s what got us interested in Autodesk… and it’s the only way to keep us excited about Autodesk. I, for one, will never buy any Max-competitor program from AD, plain and simple. But I will stay an AD customer so long as Max is always kept at the front of the bus.
There might be something people are overlooking.
@Jim Todd: Regarding the violins and the presumption to need to go out of one’s way to avoid hurting any “developer” feelings. All I can say is that what you suggest, which basically boils down to “leave Autodesk if you can’t handle it”, is exactly what happened over the many years. And not just ones but *repeatedly*. Many who had other options had already followed your advice even before you provided it. 🙂
I don’t think people should blame “the developers”, which over the years have grown into nothing more than “a reference” that no longer had outward facing individual characteristics but rather, and for obvious reasons, decided to focus on their work and not the interaction with users. This is something that has been a path that was set in motion long before the often referred to “2008” release. Quite a few years before it, IMHO.
But certainly anyone would understand that if almost all the great developers who had proven track records, options, and reasonable personal ability to find gainful employment elsewhere (or start things for themselves or those who made complete career changes) have left, then what you’re left with is… not the kind of team I’d prefer to have. And that’s nothing personal and not meant as any disrespect. Not every developer has the same skill level. Some do what they can with the skills they have. They should be proud of what they’re doing and what they are able to do.
However, if, in addition to that situation, you also have management that themselves are considered “lacking” in certain areas, you end up with a situation and environment that essentially will get very little done in the time they’re allotted.
@EastCoast3D: Regarding your “the cost to implement isn’t much as others have made good scripts/plugins very quickly” comment… ah. What can I say. What should I say? For a moment there I thought I’d say nothing. But there’s too many people blaming everyone and anyone and others blaming them for blaming others. That’s not a good thing and is a distraction that may be helpful to those who wish it so but not really good for a base of users.
Please check what I just mentioned above. Now, please understand that those who you label as “Puppet Masters” are often themselves not all that capable or technical. The proper procedure (as it should be in any development environment) is for these “Puppet Masters” (just using your term there) to ask their team “how much time do you think you need to implement x or y?” and based on the collective answers to many such questions a “Puppet Master” needs to start slicing the budget and time and plan for things. This is not an easy task. If the provided information is such that you have to cut out features that “take too long” (I really am trying to say this in the simplest terms) then that’s a proper business decision.
What if the developers that have not followed Jim’s “advice” are not as skilled as previous ones? Do you think that influences the projected timing when doing planning? Of course it does. It always does.
I really hate to be all negative here but both sides are totally wrong when they make blanket statements like “it’s the puppet masters all the way high up that are to blame” and “it’s the developers” and what ever else. The fact is that things are much more detailed, quite a bit more complicated, and a lot more complex than most people who have NOT been part of larger development teams (or Autodesk specifically for that matter haha) seem to understand.
I don’t think anyone should be blamed at this point because the collective cluster-flark-over-time is one where there’s just no going back and no blaming anyone. Unless you wish to blame “the collective”. 🙂
With respect to Mr. Didak’s statements, and I admittedly have never been part of a big development team, but every fiber of my brain tells me that decisions as big as Naiad or probably Alembic go from Top to Bottom, so I’ll stick with my feelings towards the higher ops.
The thing is that if one carefully observes the directions that this company is taking, one can see that they are trying to make Max a Hub for their Internal, and Design oriented pipelines while make Maya an External bridge with the world outside, and why this(sad thing) is happening I think is kind of a paradox, some big names like Pixar use Maya in their pipeline and develop for it(and Autodesk certainly likes that and can benefit from that), but on the other hand Autodesk seeing that tries to advertise and promote Maya(Instead of Max), so consequently more big pipelines go towards that software, and as a result Adesk is even more inclined to push Maya in that direction, and before you know it they(Autodesk) have pushed Max to a domestic, more limited space, or as I call it the sidelines.
And that ‘Horrible’ situation will continue until either Autodesk decides to change it’s view and starts to Promote Max again in those areas, or more studios like Pixomondo and Platige, start using Max in bigger pipelines.
So let’s assume that many of the points here are correct, that:
1) From the management side they are neglecting Max for film/TV, and hoping all/most will switch to Maya. This agrees with the evidence (certainly the ‘neglecting’ bit).
2) They have DATA that suggests that while there are tons of Max users, the share that want to use it for film/tv is tiny (a “minority of a minority”)…reasonable to believe.
3) From the developer side, for a number of reasons which could include #1 above, they are hemorrhaging talent and just don’t have the technical chops to succeed with Max for film/tv (and possibly not for ANY purpose long-term). I trust Stefan and others on this point.
Then for me, as much as I love Max, it is time for Autodesk to let each Max user decide, and if we want to switch to Maya now that they’ve undercut us at every turn, we can do that one time at no cost. Flip the switch, and my subscription is Maya.
I note that they seem so terrified to admit that they’ve given up on film that any time this is suggested (by me and others), there is no response.
I really don’t relish learning a whole new workflow, but seriously I can see no scenario where they can actually fix this in a timely manner….EVEN IF they wanted to, if even a couple of these assertions are true.
Also note; anyone who believes that Autodesk is actually listening now is choosing to forget several years of history.
If assure my wife that I’m listening to her, and while she speaks I begin using a chainsaw, that’s not listening, even if I periodically pause to remind her of how much I’m listening, or to tell her that “Okay, NOW I’m listening”.
It would probably not take much effort to find instances of Ken P. telling us how much they are listening, Delise telling us how much they are listening, and now this….really? This time for sure?
Back to my point: It is clear, no matter what they SAY, that they have done NOTHING with respect to the features we need, and even when they just BUY products to avoid having their own R&D, it goes to Maya.
If they suddenly got a proclamation from on-high that said they need to develop Max for film, they seemingly don’t have the talent to even do it anymore. So Max 2015 is the version where they fail at many of these tasks, and MAYBE Max 2016 begins this journey. I can’t renew TWO MORE TIMES in the hopes that they haven’t lied to me once again. Then, as Max 2045 approaches – “We realize that many of you are upset, and so we have recommitted to listening to our users…”
I get not wanting to devote resources to a product that competes with Maya (kind of…certainly less now than in the past), but then let us switch, and leave Max to the people they are focusing on.
If its good enough for ILM to use on a production, its good enough to have better Alembic support, Ptex and Open Subdiv and fluids. And you guys should be pushing for it to be taken up in the vfx fields, it should have a Prman bridge by now, anyone remember Entropy. You should be making a bridge for the three packages so that all fields can hire anyone using the suites and have full interop. I should be able to work in max/maya/soft without hiccups on a project and finally you need to stop suppressing 3dsmax. It was bad enough when it was referred to as a toy by old school maya users….
Nice speech Chris I’m sure, and nothing personal, but again… BUT
I don’t think Max is being killed, just killed in any way that any one in the games, TV and film market will want to use it. Maybe it isn’t even being killed in those markets on purpose, but the way Max has been heading, or not heading, will kill it in those markets.
We need OpenSubSiv, we need the others tools and Autodesk needs to commit to these things long before users start revolts. We need to be able to reference Anything, not just some meshes, we need to be able to use the software in pipelines and not just by single users. We need to have major tools kept up todate so that they compete with the rest of the markets tools.
One of the recent vidoes,e which I’m sure was in direct response to the cause of most of this was the interview about how Max was used on Startrek. Funny thing is what I got out of that was Max isn’t capable of doing much of what they needed and had to buy several thousands of dollars of plugins that happen to run on Max. I guess the one thing that Max has going for it is the SDK and not an API, but at this point that is rather sad if that is why it gets used in productions.
What I still feel is happening is that the money from Max goes to Maya and other endeavors and Max is left to be supported by 3rd partly developers. I don’t want to hurt the Max developers feelings, I’m sure that they are doing what they can and what they are told to do. Sorry to hear they are feeling down about it. I how ever can’t base what I think about Max on if I’m hurting a developers feelings or not. 2014 is much faster then previous versions, is it any better to use in production, not really as NONE of the issues that I have had with it for many many years have been addressed other then a small amount of speed. And everything that I hear leads me to believe that it will not be changed because I don’t hear any one telling us otherwise.
I think it is time that Autodesk commits to where Max is going and lets us know it by actually doing something about it.
I was also at the User group meeting. Here are my impressions.
1) Autodesk is a publicly traded company and looking for ways to reduce cost and increase the bottom line. The shareholders demand this on the CEO and all management.
2) The management teams have been reorganized under 3 main category – TV/Film, Games, and Design. This is to help things flow more efficiently.
3) Since resources are limited and they have 3 closely overlapping products, it doesn’t make sense to spread their resources thin and make all great features work across all three applications at the same time.
4) Maya is more profitable in TV/Film over Max.
5) Maya and Max is about 50/50 in games.
6) Max is more profitable in Design than Maya.
Personally, I believe Autodesk is largely locked into these paths. The problem and conflict is due to having 3 products that largely do the same thing, but can’t justify killing any of them because they still have a profitable user base. Since they need to support 3 apps, there is no why to dedicate all their resources into creating a uber app that can handle anything. Specialist apps is the way to move forward with new features quickly. However, not all apps will get them at the same time, but they haven’t really indicated if cross pollination will occur with this approach. So not sure if we will eventually see great features applies on 1 app ported over to the other app. This is where I believe their open communication will be important to them. It will help them decide if they need to port Alembic, Naiad, Open Subdiv to Max or even Softimage. If you guys don’t ask for it, they won’t do it.
Hey everyone!!!
Sorry, but I can not resist to give my portion of oil into the fire now.
Did you see the new promo?
Dont know if its just in germany or international.
Autodesk is offering upgrade to ECS Ultimate from Softimage, Max or Maya for just 1650,– euros.
What the hell… ?!
Hey,,, wait a second,,, I think I can see it in my crystal glass.
They are not killing any software, they are just going the way Adobe has gone before and proofed it.
In my opinion Autodesk is now trying to make a onetime big cash and than throw the entertainment section into the cloud for a rental thing.
Than we customers happily forced to mix n match our tools for rental and that would grant Autodesk a monthly, continuous income.
So maybe Max would be for Viz and Game,,, Maya for Film and VFX,,, and the other tools, like Softimage, Mudbox, a.s.o. (potentially EOLs?), would be for additional tasks we have to pay for.
Can that be true or is my crystal glass lying?
Hey Chris, is that the big “good” thing/times coming for us customers, that you all from Auodesk are not allowed to talk about?
Cheers,
Can
I think this video shows the future of the Max’s pipeline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUSBEdXRY8s. Mixamo store, Project Pinocchio, Populate this is not a tools what we need but adsk found money to integrate this feature but can’t find money to fix and improve mocap tools in CAT/Max.
I was at that user group meeting as well and what I got out of it was
A: Max is not facing EOL because its part of so many suites and widely used and
B: Max is being further diluted because its a part of so many suites and has to be developed for an even wider range of work than ever before.
Essentially many of us in this forum use Max for fx work and want it to be pushed in that direction. But the overwhelming user base for Max is not fx work. So though I don’t think Max will disappear in the foreseeable future I also don’t think its going to be developed in the way many of us hoped it would be when we first started using it.
Being a college professor in an animation program that uses 3ds max as it’s primary modeling tool, I am pretty concerned about our future. Our program (Currently 2 year moving to 3 years) teaches the entire process of creating short films and animations from script to storyboard to modeling/animation and rendering the final film. We do also have an animation class in Maya during the final year, but the majority of the work is done using 3ds max and mudbox. Most of us, including the program coordinator come from studios that used 3ds max and still do for animation/fx/viz/games etc. We chose to use 3ds max as our primary tool in the classroom because of it’s versatility and the use of CAT to quickly get customized characters up and running for students to create their films (getting into custom rigging with out the use of CAT would require an entire new class…we only have so many hours/week). For the most part, we are not trying to be a software specific program, we try to teach fundamentals and principles that can be carried across to other software (there is just too much to choose from now). Lately we have been shocked with the new cloud system that adobe has put in place, our book store is no longer dealing with adobe because of it, and now I’m very concerned about the direction of 3ds max. I have been a die hard 3ds max user for 10 years now, I have tried to switch to Maya several times but always fall back to 3ds max (I not only teach at the college, I also run my own business creating shorts/animations and it’s been a good year for me). I can’t bare to think that 3ds max will not keep up or be further developed towards animation. For me CAT has been a life saver for fast turn around animation projects, it’s also been a saving grace for our program allowing us to teach the entire animation process with out having to focus on just modeling, rigging, etc…student films have been getting better and better each year as our process becomes simplified thanks to tools like CAT.
PLEASE do not give up on the entertainment side of 3ds max. There is already fear that we are depending too much on software and talks of switching to Blender and The Gimp are in place to avoid license fee’s and industry standard software conflicts. I would hate to find out that 3ds max is being dropped from the entertainment side of things as this would likely see this switch to free software come true next year.
I love 3ds max, I love working between 3ds max and mudbox (can we get pTex though?). Rather than throwing it away or forcing most of us to leave for Maya, why not focus on the animation tools? Push CAT even further….how about true squash and stretch functionality? How about building in simple dynamic bones setups like the free plugin available from Brown Bag: http://www.brownbagfilms.com/blog/setting-up-a-dynamics-rig-system-3d-studio-max.
There is so much that can be done with CAT alone for animation and quick rigging….keep up the good work in that department!
And what about implementing some of the 3rd party plugins everyone loves, it would be amazing if plugins like fume fx, rayfire, etc…came with 3ds max. How about render plugins like Pencil + (being used heavily in Japan) for those of us into cartoon style animations?
Just please, don’t give up on the entertainment….I for one am not concerned about what is industry standard because I work for myself, so please don’t force me to make huge changes to my personal workflow….I hear the voices of many others saying the same thing.
I hope this all made sense…
Thank you for your time.
Can we please stop discussing about the direction max is develop too? Because it dosnet matter.
If you are in DESIGN you need a stable application that can handle huge amounts of objects and polys. And plugins for importing data from every CAD App there is. That part is already very good in 3ds max even so there are plugins that can do it even better.
If you are in VFX you need a stable application that can handle huge amounts of objects and polys. And plugins for heavy particle stuff which ALLWAYS will be better then the basic stuff in your 3d package!
So in the end its the some thing. More stable more faster! And a huge amount of effort put in the APIs.
My bad Frederic. Sorry Chris.
Too many AD Chris’ saying similar things.
In my opinion I think it would be best to throw out the phrase ‘Max is for Design’. Whether someone is designing or doing film/vfx in 3ds max, the same basic principles apply. Modeling, texturing lighting, and rendering. Within those basic principles there are handfuls of things that either need improved, implemented or changed. Of those things, they would benefit both the so called ‘Design’ side as well as the film/vfx and games sides.
Or we could just USE the phrase “Max is for Design” for our benefit.
Why do we need better geometry referencing? Because Max is for Design. Why do we need better data interchange with other applications? Because Max is for Design. Why do we need more multithreaded modifiers? Because Max is for Design. Think of whatever you think 3ds Max needs, and then think, “Would this be good for Design?” If so, then feel free to say it.
Just because 3ds Max is being used for Design doesn’t mean it gets a free pass.
Joachim: I guess I couldn’t disagree more. I didn’t buy Max as a development platform. Max has always benefited from the plugin architecture, but as the industry evolves, more and more features and functionality become ‘table stakes’ – the minimum you need to be seriously considered. Air conditioning was once a luxury in a car – but good luck selling a new car without it now.
We’ve reached the point where now we have lots of players – some even FREE like Blender, who have functionality that is either absent from Max, or only obtainable with expensive plugins.
Ah…I’m tired of this — I just want them to let me switch to Maya, because I think it’s obvious Max is not DEAD for film, it’s just going to get more and more out of date and out of touch.
I handed in the list to Chris at the nyc user group meeting. GMG, the CAT system was one of the things written down that was requested for larger improvements such as opening it up to maxscripting for the TDs.
Other things mentioned above by others was on the list, too. It wasn’t a complete list by any means, but it was something concrete to give them at the time.
I get the feeling Autodesk don’t have a clue what they are doing with 3dsmax – and are just implemented the easiest requests from users. Looking through the customer feature request website, all the ones that have been implemented are coding-wise, not that complicated. And then there’s all the Extensions. They say max is for “Design”, yet what designer needs the last extension and the one coming up?
PFlow Box3 (3rd party plugin): VFX
MassFX: VFX
Python Scripting: VFX
Stereo Camera: VFX
Point Clouds Support: All areas of 3D
The other thing is that their own product page mentions nothing about design, it literally says this:
“Autodesk® 3ds Max® software provides a comprehensive 3D modeling, animation, rendering, and compositing solution for games, film, and motion graphics artists.”
So basically if the 3dsmax developers are actually doing what they advertise their product as, why don’t we have alembic, fluids, opensubdiv etc.
One option Autodesk could do, is no new features, as they aren’t that good at providing this; Focus on multithreading everything, and cutting out the bloat in the program. Open the program up more to 3rd party developers/scripting, and drop the price. So as a publicly traded company all future features will come from the great 3dsmax plugin community – and hopefully users could break even costwise
Thank you Chaos23. CAT is a crucial addition to 3ds max that sets it apart from all other software for us, I hope they continue to develop it. I’ve been using it since it was available for download through subscription in max 9. Being able to set up a custom rig in minutes and the use of animation layers has been great so far. I’d love to see them push it further. (True squash and stretch features…)
Looking forward to see what happens.
Cheers!
Regarding CAT… I agree.*
*However, I’m guessing that AD might say that CAT isn’t as popular as expected and often unused by serious animation… and hence slow down development of it because few are using it in serious projects–altogether forgetting that the reason few use it is because it has been a very scary tool to use because many of its main features and functions were broken for so long.
You may remember that, for a long time, simply pressing the CATMotion button (one of the main features in CAT), would immediately crash Max. You can only do that so many times before you stop using it… but it seems that the managers might interpret that as lack of interest in using it for animation when in reality AD gave us an unfinished tool that was simply scary to use.
Enjoy this story: http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/3ds-Max-CAT/A-short-story-about-CAT/td-p/4183435
The final post in that thread, by Samab, concluded, that “the problem with CAT is getting the animation done in the first place.”
I’ve been tipping my toe back into CAT again… but the tool was so broken for so long that it forces Max users to wonder how seriously AD takes the customers. CAT is certainly a feature that animators wanted (and still want) to use, but it was so unusable from the gate that no one could work it without a long list of procedures to take to avoid breaking rigs or crashing Max–so it was Autodesk’s fault that animators have been luke-warm about using the tools added in Max for animation. Etc.
A interesting fact …
3dsMax ($3657) + RayFire ($345) + Frost ($495) + Krakatoa ($1000) + Thinking Particles and FumeFX ($2376) + VRay ($995) = $8868
HoudiniFX ($4495) + Modo ($1345) + C4D Studio ($3695) = $9535
Now, I’m not saying that 3dsMax with this great plugins is bad. But is almost common sense that we need them to have a full package for FX work. And with a similar price tag you get Houdini, Modo as a great modeler, some MoGraph and three great renderers (Manta, Modo and C4D Physical Render).
So yes … we can all agree that Max has to offer something more off the box.
And I didn’t include Naiad. Yes, it’s better then Houdini Ocean, but at what cost?
The CAT request was specifically mentioned by a game studio that does great work despite its limitations and bugs. So any fixes and updates would be great for them. Same thing regarding python scripting they’ve been wanting for a while.
I do wish the extension contained more like making more updates to pflow. I heard the extension was supposed to have a true Outliner finally? I didn’t see that yet, or did I miss that? They need something like the script Outliner 2.0 (too bad 3.0 never came out). That was also requested.
I’d like to extend my subscription, but…
@ unhappy_guy C4D AR is useful only for MoGraph stuff imho.
Yeah … but I was just pointing out that you could have a range of software for multiple areas, and good software in that.
Many here said the 3dsMax is like a framework … but a expensive framework if you add the money you’ll be spending on plugins.
In this perspective, is way more intelligent to buy Houdini or even Maya. At least out-of-the-box, they give more value for the money, no?
@Shawn Olson
Here is a little but of background story about CAT.
After Autodesk aquired Softimage,
all orginal CAT developers were left.
Laster max team decided to rewrite the CAT from scratch.
Eventually max team rehire one of original CAT developer,
The current CAT is a completely re-written CAT since 2012.
When you try to write a new code while trying to maintain backward compatibility, that’s not an easy job(That’s why I don’t beleive max rewrite)
Anyway max team have spent a good chunk of resouces for CAT for at least-2-3 years(I think it is a part of reason why we don’t see much of improvment for animation.)
I heard the stability of CAT in 2014 is a lot better then 2012/2013.
@unhappy guy.
No. As an 3d Artist i don’t want to buy a framework or Mel-scripting based operating system. My day is very short, my customers are nerve-chainsaws, and i don’t have money to pay extra programmers. 3DSMAX is just the right tool for small (and big) studios which want to concentrate on visual development. If you want 10mil dots to fly in the wind, you buy Krakatoa. I don’t need them, i make colorful kitsch images, i buy Vray. Do not suggest that everybody needs Naiad and Krakatoa and Vray. There are still many artists who use just 3dsMax and few freeware tools to create awesome images published in Expose books.
Do not forget – I can buy FumeFX or Forst, when i need it for the project – i can hide this $ 500,- in the invoice and get overnight my job done.
What i can’t buy is the MEL/Houdini programming know-how, and the time to learn it. The plugin aspect of 3dsMax makes some work processes and decisions very flexible.
I think we have moved far away from the starting point. Chris Young stated at the beginning he is here, and he wants to listen for our proposals.
1) I think the last point with advanced CAT as further evolution of BIP is very good. I would like to see this development extended too!
2) Second thing is the fact we are losing many users which we could hold very easy. There is a whole segment of the entertainment market called Motion-Design. Autodesk has, without battle, left the field to Cinema4D.
I would to see improvement of few animation aspects – spline needs to be modernized (NO extra eggspline!), basically everything where we lose ground to Cinema4D. Motion-Design tools are already in Max – but you can’t animate them. People switch to Cinema4D because you can’t seriously work with spline-, fonts and vertex animations…
This would be my first 2 thoughts after looking for few seconds at the jobs on my work desk.
@Changsoo Eun
I don’t doubt that what you say. (I’ve been trying to use CAT more and more and find it more stable than in the past.) And I don’t doubt it is difficult programmatically, especially when keeping backwards compatibility. What I’m trying to say is that the history of AD on things like CAT along with the apparent push for other packages to be the media animation solutions creates inherent uncertainty. On top of that, for the Max user, it is easy to worry that AD will simply stop putting any serious development into CAT because they perceive their animation efforts are more profitable elsewhere–and that is what is worrisome. It is all too easy, from a Max user perspective, to get the feeling that managers are making decisions that are not based on all facts–especially if this kind of thinking happens where AD failures induce results that then turn into AD justifying decisions that are rationalized because of user apathy–that was created to begin with from AD failures.
(I’m not all anti-AD, mind you… as I promote the company every single day of my life. I love Max. I’m just massively apprehensive.)
I am not privy to any of the behind the scenes. I could be entirely wrong about all of this. I’m simply sharing a longtime feeling I’ve had.
Since we are paying customers, and pay for broken features, it is our right and obligation to share these perceptions. (It doesn’t matter, at this point that CAT is becoming usable… what matters is the perceptions created for everyone who paid for Max 2011 [or so] to find that the advertised feature called CAT was simply broken and you would never get it to work correctly unless you upgraded to the next two or three versions… Imagine buying a car and finding out your transmission would fail every time you hit third gear and the dealership happily said you can buy a new car next year to use third gear…)
If Autodesk wants to know why many users feel distrust about AD, there is one kind of thing that explains it. Perception of its intentions is a major problem that AD needs to find a way to address.
Hey @Igor, I hear you.
I guess I wrote and didn’t make a point. For me, I think we should see improvements on 3dsMax because the competition is making it. I don’t care if there’s plugins to help improve Max, what I want is a solid package for work on all sorts of works.
My point was that 3dsMax with plugins is a BEAST, but I also would like it to be a BEAST without plugins. God knows it’s expensive to buy only the software, even more with plugins.
So … I think improvements should be made in CAT (animation in general) and things “MoGraphic”, because I think Max can take C4D with a few adjustments. With ATK (from Joker Martini and Andru Phoenix) you already have some things. We need more. 🙂
Plugins is fine – but who knows what happened with them tomorrow?
Let’s say you working on project that require some FX work. You using 3rd party plugin. After that it company developer shutdown and discontinued product sales.
What next? You build a pipeline that used this plugin but you need update to new 3ds max version in future . “Clean” 3ds max can’t do to much in FX, isnt’it ?
And nobody talk about why it cost like other packages.
How it price formed? Why it not include that you need at least FFX to buy.FFX can be used not only for explosions but for clouds, fog also.
The last move by Cebas, hope they porting Thinking particles to Maya soon.
@unhappy_guy – ok, this sounds as we have the same idea! 🙂
The MoGraph stuff would be awesome. Not only as a feature, but as an attract-force for new layer of customers.
Look, we must be honest – 3dsmax users are demographically a horde of old elephants. Look at the people here in forum and check their age (my including, it starts with a big “4”).
When a company reaches point where 50% of users are older then 50 years, it can actually start thinking of closing the offices. From this perspective i can somehow understand Autodesk 🙂
The party is at the moment in the C4D (or maya) house. MotionDesign and Animation is where you have lot of young people, working with AE, making rapid, dirty or fancy image films and shots for companies. Why not attract them with some MoGraph tools so they start working in Max: we have so many great renderers.
About Max internal architecture – Joker and Andru are great, but they are far not as good as the MaxSDK is bad in this point. You can’t do much with splines in max at the moment. We need new (modified) splines and vertices. Have you seen how splines work in Softimage? It is a dream! You can watch them and think all the time “God d***, i am still living in the Paleolithic era!”
@some user, What’s the difference? Autodesk makes no guarantee that features in the current version will be developed or even continued into future versions. At least with plugins you have a choice and an alternative support option. Some plugins that were acquired by Autodesk have been developed further, but many have not, and some are discontinued.
As I quote Jerry Maguire to Autodesk … “help ME help YOU!”.
“- They repeatedly said throughout the night the best way to give feedback and get insights to next versions is to get on the beta”
Ok, well…I applied to the beta via their online form and sent an email directly to Kelly Michels over a week ago. No response.
@Mitch Gates
dude, i applied two years ago for the Beta and the only opportunity i got so far is to beta test FBX.
I haven’t been on a beta for many years, but in my times the alpha/betas have been feature fixed, which isn’t really holding much time and possibilities to shape a product by user input…
Why did Autodesk made available the “small annoying things” and “general features requests” websites is beyond me. Very few of those ideas were actually implemented in Max 2014.
Most of them were finally done by some good person that was willing to share a script.
I’m assuming then that Autodesk wanted a website for us to complaint without calling them, for years now.
Great customer satisfaction policy! keep up with the good work!
Soon Autodesk’s gonna be the Microsoft of 3D software. I’m anxiously waiting for that to happen. We just need the Google of 3D.
@Igor Posavec said: “Look, we must be honest – 3dsmax users are demographically a horde of old elephants. Look at the people here in forum and check their age (my including, it starts with a big “4″).”
Igor, I’m in my thirties. I think John Martini is in his twenties. The vast majority of people that come to me for various input are teenagers and college students. The vast majority of the users of my tools are quite happy and excited about Max–many of whom are brand new to 3D or simply still wet behind the ears.
If there is a party in the Maya world, it is only because that is where the current marketing push is. The kids and students don’t know one package from the next until it is introduced to them. When the hype is targeting Maya, then it necessitates interest from the newer blood. But that is not because the market is necessarily pulling for Maya… but the reverse. Maya is being pushed.
Here is a quote sent to me from someone asking me, in an unrelated discussion about Max, whether they should update to Max 2014: “i’m not sure if it’s worth switching over. the update list was… so poor. autodesk is clearly shifting all its attention to maya”
This was from a young pro at a popular game studio.
The young bloods are just as happy to use Max as Maya… it’s just that AD is fabricating the industry shift by promoting it more to the entertainment world than Max. Which brings us back to a problem at AD: Max users are feeling extremely uneasy and on edge because of this trend.
I would love to hear some feedback and thoughts from more people at AD. I’d even like to hear what the developers are thinking themselves.
I know the guys developing the code are definitely more than capable of doing what we want in terms of features and bug fixes, I’m just assuming they aren’t given the task or direction to do so, and I want to know why they wouldn’t be?
We are all artists here and at some point in our careers we’ve done paid work for other people (clients). We usually do our best, at all costs, to do what the client wants. The end goal of making a happy client and also a returning client. As a result they are happy and we are happy. They get a product and we get money.
In the case of AD, we the clients, are asking for features and bug fixes, which we never get, let alone get communication from…..So in return doesn’t make us very happy. So why would I want to return as a custom and continually purchase AD products, giving them more and more money for a product which never seems to include the things we all ask for. If they did the things we asked for it would make for a better product, making more customers happy.
How does this theory not apply to AD, they do not make sense in there planning and/or direction.
My frustration also with AD wanting us to post here and make our thoughts available for them to read is just as good as the ones on their website. We post relentlessly but hear no comments in return, leaving us to believe we are just talking to each other with no one at AD reading.
I got a name @ the NYC usergroup – Ian Hooper. He’s the Sr. Interaction Designer / Product Design and Learning. Right before I left he approached a few of us and told us to contact him regarding getting into the beta. I missed when he spoke, in the beginning of the meeting, so I’m not sure if he’s in charge and to what degree with the beta. That being said, I got into the beta on Thursday so perhaps contacting him will help:
ian.hooper@autodesk.com
@JokerMartini:
Those are questions you will never get an answer for (hearing what the debs think or do). Working at Autodesk entails signing a contract and NDA’s.
@JokerMartini:
I thought I’d also add some comments around the rest of your post.
Your analogy with client work does not accurately reflect the relationship we have with Autodesk. When you get a contract from a client, he/she is effectively hiring you to produce work to their specifications. Our end of the contract consists of delivering said work.
We, as customers, are not hiring Autodesk to write software up to our specifications. Autodesk develops the software they want, according to their vision and business strategy. It’s up to us, as customers, to decide if we take it. That’s all. You either buy it (or pay subscription for it), or not. If we don’t like it, we may take our business elsewhere.
For the sake of simplicity, I don’t understand why so much energy is spent in trying to twist Autodesk’s arm. I love Max as much as anyone else (been using it since the days of 3D Studio for DOS), but if its not the tool I need anymore, well, I’ve moved on. I understand for a lot of studios this is not an easy decision to execute (a lot of time, knowledge, and cash invested already), but it should be a clear sign that having a plan B in place is a must.
I don’t mean to lecture anyone, of course. Just speaking from my personal POV. I don’t see Max ceasing to exist in games and film anytime soon, but I definitely think its days are counted.
My $0.02…
I guess in a more simple way. AD’s goal is to make money by selling a product that is appealing to the majority of customers. In doing so you’d think they would want to develop product in a way that pleases that majority.
I don’t feel like they are doing that at all. I’m not sure what direction they are going in if they even care.
I think that what’s being missed here is that Autodesk are doing exactly that. People at Autodesk are not the caricature they are oftentimes portrayed to be. They are not hell-bent on world domination, nor laughing their butts off in some meeting room while lighting cigars using 50 dollar bills. Their business IS to make software people will want to use. The thing is that, in this case, they want Maya to be that software.
You need to see this through Autodesk’s eyes (which is from a business/engineering perspective). You have 3 products that do EXACTLY the same thing (author and manage 3D assets). You have 3 very expensive development teams working on them. What would anyone do? The logical conclusion would be that, maybe by having only one product, you’d save more money while still making the same amount of revenue. Of course, to do that, you have to make the one software you intend to keep desirable enough so that the users of your other applications would move on to it happily. Which is kind of difficult, said users being so passionate about their given tool of choice.
I’m not predicting the future here. I have no idea of Autodesk’s real intentions or plans. I’m just looking forward to where the road seems to be headed. I don’t think that it takes a lot of brains to see that Max’s and Softimage’s days are numbered. It’s just a matter of getting those users to want (or need) Maya enough. When the migration threshold is reached, the blade will come down (not in an obvious way, of course… We just have to look at how it was done for combustion, for example).
My own $0.02…
Coffin + http://store.autodesk.eu/DRHM/store = Final Nail for 3D Max Game Development read more here : http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/autodesk-maya-lt-software-launches-for-indie-developers-27-08-2013/
In the words of Autodesk…
“It is NOT true we’re killing Max in the Entertainment sector.
We are ONLY pushing Maya harder. That’s all.”
@JokerMaritni
Because they’re a monopoly.
Do we have an option right now? no.
They can say that there are other options out there. It’s a lie. If there were, they would buy them, like they did with Maya, Max, softimage, etc.
I’m sick of acquisitions! It’s killing competition LEGALLY.
How’s the law allowing this? It could only be lobbying.
It this “open channel with 3DS Max users” now officially dead?
ADSK Tumbleweed anyone?
this good news for 3dsmax user that long time 3dsmax studio Platige images change from 3dsmax to maya
http://www.itsartmag.com/features/interview-platige-making-witcher-3/#.Uiq_yj_hfmI
future 3dsmax entertainment will use only for kit.
That hurts: “GRZEGORZ KUKUŚ : That’s true, we decided to enact major changes before tackling the project. Aside from the normal evolution of the pipeline, one that’s been taking place for years, we decided to switch our primary 3D software and our primary renderer, leaving 3ds Max + V-ray for Maya + Arnold.”
Now if you add to this the new Chaos Group price for render nodes, the lack of development in 3ds Max and the evolution of Arnold and push of AD Maya … one can only wonder in how many months other studios will make the switch to.
This seems to have lost momentum again. I was hoping for a more proactive Autodesk, but we have yet again had “can’t talk about the future”, and “good things coming” that we get every year.
I applied weeks ago to be part of the next Beta. I haven’t even had a reply from Kelly. Has he left Autodesk? Vacation? Switched roles again?
I think it’s time for a second open letter. Don’t you guys think that?
@mpcdev, I am in two minds at the moment.
The optimist in me hopes that there are behind-the-scenes changes going on and it will be better in the future.
The pessimist in me still thinks that Max is being wound down in preference to Maya. Emails to the people who said “they were listening” aren’t being replied to. Nothing seems to have changed. Different people in AD are giving us different answers. Other than asking me for money to renew my Max seats, I haven’t had any contact from Autodesk for a while.
What we need is for Autodesk to step up and tell us what’s happening. Not this mysterious “we can’t say anything for legal reasons”, which I can partially understand. Give us something concrete.
I’ve will probably retire from 3D when they finally do announce Max is EOL. I’ve been working in 3D since the 1980’s. It’s sad, but I now spend more time managing others and developing tools rather than actually doing 3D. Perhaps it’s time for a change.
Hey Autodesk! Here is another great idea….
Start a big discussion where you claim you are listening and taking our concerns seriously and trying to build better communications with the upset users…..
…then [edited] vanish for a month.
Moderators: thanks for removing the one somewhat naughty word (note: I had replaced letters with symbols like in comics) from my post.
It was written in (yet more) anger at AD, but I must say that having it say “[edited]” is actually a better way of getting my point across–AD has gotten me to the point where I can’t talk about them without profanity (veiled or not)…
Off to go play with my copy of [competitor] and try to move further away from this company that has abandoned us (and this thread)
Is anybody getting any responses from anybody at Autodesk?
My emails to Kelly Michels go unanswered. My messages to him on the Autodesk forum haven’t even been read.
I’m not impressed so far with the new openness that was promised.
Seems they have gone full stealth mode on all fronts now.
Wether this is because they rearrange certain internal things ( again ) and wether this would be to the better or worse from 3ds Max’s POV is uncertain.
Or maybe the middle managment, which had gone vocal here did recieved a major bollocking from upper managment because of that ?
Here we still sit and still can only speculate where the drifting Autodesk shipwreck is running onto ground this time
I’m really buzzled atm about Autodesk’s behaviour…
Since this is a Max news site, and since the owners took the time to post THIS news article, I am wondering if it might be a good idea for Max Underground to create a new news article:
Autodesk M&E Quickly CLOSES Channel with 3DS Max Users
As snide as that sounds, it’s certainly more accurate reporting than what we have here….okay, maybe not more accurate, but certainly more up-to-date.
People coming to Max Underground and not reading through the entire string of comments will incorrectly believe that AD has actually opened this line of communication, when in fact it was apparently just a short, patronizing, band-aid PR move.
I would say either put in a new short blurb with the accurate statement about them vanishing, or perhaps simply change THIS header to read “Opens, then Closes”…with an update.
Cuz it ain’t open, that’s for sure…
Thanks,
Clearly somebody(higher ops maybe) has advised them to lay low for now(which is discouraging and yet typical), considering their statements weren’t really helping anything lately and were making people(including myself) even more nervous about how they are looking at this whole issue(Max’s development that is), combine that with the whole “LT” news, and an ‘Extended’ Release that many would call irrelevant to the recent/current complaints and demands, one can only hope that(really hope that) the current silence is because they are working on something to put people’s mind at ease, and not because they are afraid/ashamed to show themselves.
Autodesk, believe me when I tell you that at this point, your next respond to this whole thing will be the deciding factor for a lot of people, so this is your chance to either tell me that I’m right about you and your plans for Max, or that I have no idea what I’m talking about here, please, please prove to me that I have no idea what I’m talking about and I’ve been wrong this whole time, please include Bitfrost in Max, that alone would show me that you don’t plan on removing Max from the Entertainment sector, please implement the OpenSubDiv/Catmull-Clark in Max(we need this), please let Max work with Alembic and Ptex.
Chris stated that: “I will be listening and responding through the actions we take in our design meetings & beta forums”.
Since we aren’t in the design meetings, and Kelly is not responding to emails or messages, we can’t get into the beta, there is nothing they can listen to. When Max is in Beta, the features are all in for the next release. Saying that we can influence it at this point seems redundant.
So, nothing. Again. No contact until subscription charges are due, and just before a new “release” we will get shown a few “new” features. The same as every year in recent times.
I’m considering taking my department in a new direction. I don’t like the massive price hikes. I don’t pay for a room-full of Max seats so that it can be ignored until it’s EOL. I know it’s AD’s choice of what to do with the money they make, but I can choose to not fund that any further.
I am aware that my constant ranting might seem childish, but I love this product more than any other software, and the thought of it left alone and starving in a dark basement, forgotten and forsaken drives me to sentimental outbursts.
Nik: I am not a huge company, but I absolutely made the call a little while back, when the writing was faintly visible on the wall that Max was dead for film/tv, to add a seat of a non-Autodesk product.
At the same time I subscribed to DT to help with the learning curve.
Make no mistake, I still LOVE Max, and since it is what I learned on it’s still more natural to me. But I’m now doing about 60% in Max, 40% in the other product, and I’m delighted. I think that as painful as the cost of the other product was, it’s no different than the decision to diversify your investment portfolio. You wouldn’t want to put all your money in one stock, why would you only keep one product of this kind?
No analogy is perfect, and in fact it would probably be just fine to have only one 3D product….as long as that one product wasn’t clearly moving away from your needs and potentially on the way out.
It is somewhat telling that Chris pulls a drive-by here then vanishes, but upon reflection is it not MORE telling that we’ve heard nothing about Max from Marc Stevens?
Chris might very well be a huge fan of Max, and have all kinds of dreams and desires for it, but Marc is going to decide what gets the tv/film focus, and clearly he’s in the Maya camp. Chris is not in charge of “Max for Film”….his job stays as Max decays into a viz tool.
Live from the AD offices? http://www.dilbert.com/2013-09-15/
Nice one – – it wouldn’t be so horrible perhaps if they hadn’t gone to all this trouble to shove Chris out there, and force him to make all these now clearly false statements about listening and communication.
Reading his original post you’re forced to laugh or get incredibly angry – at this point I opt to laugh.
That’s what I originally thought, and then I read this again and noticed:
” I will be listening and responding through the actions we take in our design meetings & beta forums”
So is he lurking silently in the shadows…if so, one thing is clear from this: Autodesk completely slamming the doors and going dark/silent as we’re seeing now was what he meant by this.
There is no dialog unless you’re in the beta, and it appears clear they aren’t letting new folks in.
When I first read it I incorrectly assumed that people might hear something, but upon actually reading it again he’s basically saying this is the last you’ll hear from AD on Max unless A) you’re in the beta or B) they happen to choose to communicate in a user group meeting. The rest of us can hang – our communication will come when they release the new features list for Max – likely months after you’ve paid them for another year, and so too late to avoid wasting money on the next sad release.
I’m not going to get an answer on allowing people to switch to Maya – they have decided on silence.
Are there sites like this for other applications? Non-company sites with this kind of community and news? For software like C4D or Houdini?
For C4D there’s c4dcafe.com which is very good. For Houdini I think there’s only the original forums.
aya.
So to rap it up dear Max users,
AD need to promote 3dmax as a modern entertainment tool with latest 3d animation and VFX options like fire, water simulations, destruction , along with usable crowed simulations tools.
Its all possible to implement with the current based tools and software acquired, so we hope to hear good news with the next 3dmax 15 version release.
Nik Clark wrote:
“Since we aren’t in the design meetings, and Kelly is not responding to emails or messages, we can’t get into the beta, there is nothing they can listen to.”
@Nik: Were you able to get into beta or there’s still no reply?
@Jim Todd: Thanks for the suggestions. 🙂
@Jim Todd, gonebadfx:
for Houdini there’s http://odforce.net
@Pablo, I’ve still had no reply from Kelly about the beta program, and quite a few other people are telling me that they are getting no response about it.
I know I’ve made a lot of noise about things recently, but every time I use Max, I am reminded what an excellent program it is. Autodesk have really made an excellent tool. I really hope the fears about it are unfounded.
It would be nice for AD to make another comment. It has been quite a while now.
And Kelly, if you’re out there, please check your messages 🙂
@Nik: I have searched my entire email box and the only email thread I see from you was on 7-27-12 about iRay. Please email me your info and request to me at kelly.michels@autodesk.com and I will get it processed quickly. I don’t know how I missed the previous request but I will get it resolved for you.
@Nik: I started doing some searching and see that you contacted me via private message on The Area on 8-27-13. When I logged in it said I had zero new messages. I went to review them and see a notice about a new private messaging system. For whatever reason I was never sent a notice and The Area said I had zero new messages. In addition to your request I see two other new ones! I apologize for this, I did not even know this had changed. As requested above please send me the email address you want to use for the beta.
I am following up to the other two requests now. In the future please email me directly and I will follow up promptly.
Hi Kelly,
Thanks for the reply, it’s much appreciated. No worries about missing the message, I imagine you are a pretty busy guy anyway. I will email you at that address later today.
First order of the day for me, to quickly replace a studio backdrop somebody has made large black marks on. Argh!
@Nik: Glad to see this is being resolved.
@Kelly: Thanks for listening and helping.
Regarding the fears about Max’s future, I believe at this point we all need to see real deeds to be convinced Autodesk is not relegating it to Archviz in favor of Maya for any other CG task. Or that after switching PMs so often the software has a clearly defined path that listens to customers’ suggestions and needs.
I hope Autodesk will give a clear signal at some point.
Quoting Autodesk’s co-founder John Walker (from an Autodesk meeting):
Around here, I’ve been known to say things like, “I don’t care what you think. What do the customers think?”. That may sound arrogant, but to me it’s just plain old common sense. The evidence that it works is all around us.
Not sure how much this means, but for the first time ever I received an email from Autodesk 3DS Max Feedback where you are allotted a certain number of votes to pick what you’d like to see implemented. It says the “Catmull Clark Subdivision Surfaces” (OpenSubDiv) is finally Under Review, but no status yet. Progress?
You must be mistaking, mine says “Quad chamfers” and it seems also that way in the site itself, but here’s the odd part, “Catmull Clark Subdivision Surfaces” has actually had an Under Review status for a while now(Somebody confirm please in case I’ve been hallucinating all this time), and now they’ve removed it.
So, should we be happy right now? What am I saying, of course we should, after all they’ve finally considered a basic feature that’s been the number one in rating in their site for god knows how many years now, who needs fundamental features such as improved Subdevision Surfaces in a 3D package.
Quad-chamfer is under review, but Catmull Clark Subdivision Surfaces ia not currently under review.
ah, i didn’t know Catmull Clark Subdivision was under review all this time. Totally misinterpreted what they meant. I took it as it’s under review, but still no status update yet. so much for progress . . .
I got my beta application issues resolved – Thanks Kelly!
But it is still a pretty horrific state in terms of communication. It just means that we MIGHT get some info from the beta, but no one else will hear anything unless someone violates an NDA.
Actually, maybe that’s the plan- – – put EVERYONE who complains on the beta, have them sign the agreement…then if they don’t add anything good no one who knows will be able to tell anyone. Hope that’s not the plan…seems a bit too sinister.
anybody have any news about effects of mr.Hudson’s discussions with AD ? this is effective discussion or only a Strategy from AD for Silence users ?